| Author |
kluth armor |
Ragglock
Marshal
BIOnics Industry Syndicate
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1955
From: Denmark
|  Posted: 2006-02-14 18:49
well can be somone need to look into the armor on kluth ships
probaly mostly on smaller ships im not talking dreds here
1 layer dont do much when 1 flux can take it down to hull 50% in one blast
solution rework some of the armor layers
and/or some armor solutions for upgrading
look elsewhere for my elf armor sugestion
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LOVE the smell of human flesh in the morning smells like MVictory
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Borgie
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 2256
From: close by
| Posted: 2006-02-14 19:11
i noticed that dred armor is way stronger
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2006-02-14 19:31
A flux wave doesn't do 50% armour damage to kluth. I have no idea what Ragg was testing against (dread v scout perhaps). But a flux wave doesn't do anywhere near 50% armour damage to a kluth ship of the same hull type.
Understand Ragg that bigger ships have a higher level weapon than smaller ships. So a Dread or Cruiser fluxing a Scout or Frigate is going to take its armour down way, way quicker than a smaller ship, because of the ratio between them... Other than that, a flux wave doesn't even touch 50% on a same hull type ship (or even one below (I fluxed a dread in a TC)).
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2006-02-14 19:32 ]
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Cataclysm
Cadet
Joined: November 26, 2005
Posts: 45
| Posted: 2006-02-15 04:58
Scale could use an extra layer on the front of the armour, instead of as soon as you decloak you lose your front arc and 20% hull it would be able to decloak fire and recloak repeatedly.
Ultimate sup could use with some more armour to actually make it more like an... ultimate sup
[ This Message was edited by: Cataclysmic Bum on 2006-02-15 07:19 ]
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2006-02-15 10:19
Quote:
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On 2006-02-15 04:58, Cataclysmic Bum wrote:
Scale could use an extra layer on the front of the armour, instead of as soon as you decloak you lose your front arc and 20% hull it would be able to decloak fire and recloak repeatedly.
Ultimate sup could use with some more armour to actually make it more like an... ultimate sup
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What is it people find to hard to understand about Kluth  ?
You're not meant to have a lot of armour to duke it out. You're meant to have a small amount of armour to force you into hit and run tactics. You're cloak should be tweaked to enable you to do that, along with beacon changes (hopefully). The ultimate supply is not meant to have a lot of armour, you're meant to repair OUT of battle, hence your cloak enables you to disapear so you can let the AHR do its job.
The thing you don't seem to understand (and I have no idea why), is that your weapons RIP through armour and shielding like a hot knife through butter, which is the pay off.
I've managed to do it just fine, so has Drafell, and many other people. I just don't see what's so hard about pressing K to uncloak, pressing spacebar to fire, and then pressing K again to cloak and repair if you've taken damage.
Granted, K'luth need minor changes to some ships, like everything else. But armour, is not one of the changes needed. Kluth are weak, it's their weakness, but their weapons own, so it's all fair and square.
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Crim
Fleet Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: March 16, 2003
Posts: 1336
| Posted: 2006-02-15 14:36
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On 2006-02-14 19:11, Borgie *SC* wrote:
i noticed that dred armor is way stronger
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Thats the way it is supposed to be...
Dreads > Dessies again 
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Hellaciouss
Vice Admiral
Joined: May 18, 2004
Posts: 22
| Posted: 2006-02-15 16:50
Quote:
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On 2006-02-15 10:19, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
Quote:
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On 2006-02-15 04:58, Cataclysmic Bum wrote:
Scale could use an extra layer on the front of the armour, instead of as soon as you decloak you lose your front arc and 20% hull it would be able to decloak fire and recloak repeatedly.
Ultimate sup could use with some more armour to actually make it more like an... ultimate sup
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What is it people find to hard to understand about Kluth ?
You're not meant to have a lot of armour to duke it out. You're meant to have a small amount of armour to force you into hit and run tactics. You're cloak should be tweaked to enable you to do that, along with beacon changes (hopefully). The ultimate supply is not meant to have a lot of armour, you're meant to repair OUT of battle, hence your cloak enables you to disapear so you can let the AHR do its job.
The thing you don't seem to understand (and I have no idea why), is that your weapons RIP through armour and shielding like a hot knife through butter, which is the pay off.
I've managed to do it just fine, so has Drafell, and many other people. I just don't see what's so hard about pressing K to uncloak, pressing spacebar to fire, and then pressing K again to cloak and repair if you've taken damage.
Granted, K'luth need minor changes to some ships, like everything else. But armour, is not one of the changes needed. Kluth are weak, it's their weakness, but their weapons own, so it's all fair and square.
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What you see here is what Backslash loves to do most, which is disagree, granted he has an almost non-existant to small point other then to say, "no you're wrong" and belittle those who can't do what he can.
Kluth ships aren't supposed to have lots of armor, that is really their weakness, but they have no strengths in weapons becuase all factions can have the same weapons. What's so awsome about Kluth? They have 1 extra front weapon spot on some ships? Joke?
It would be nice if each faction had tech that no other faction can fit on their ships that are absolutly awsome and that fits their factions main strength, but they don't really (barring dread/station only ones)
Also, becons are a problem. What they do is fine, but the time on them is what really hurts the kluth. Becons time limit needs to be toned down A LOT. Make it a 15-20, maybe 30 second thing. Make people have to decide how to limit themselves on using them, not mashing the space bar firing 2+ becons per shot, what's max level give, 20 becons? Give them a long reload or something or the above mentioned change.
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Doran
Chief Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 29, 2003
Posts: 4032
From: The Gideon Unit
| Posted: 2006-02-15 17:21
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On 2006-02-15 16:50, Ase wrote:
Kluth ships aren't supposed to have lots of armor, that is really their weakness, but they have no strengths in weapons becuase all factions can have the same weapons. What's so awsome about Kluth? They have 1 extra front weapon spot on some ships? Joke?
keeping in mind this is BETA, ugto and icc cant mount psi missiles or psi cannons, or elf, or disruptors, or SIs or cloak, or AHR, or AMJs, or their fighters, or organic armor or shock missiles or shredder missiles. as out-of-order as upgrade paths are, all the kluth tech that humans can mount *CURRENTLY* is AMEs and AM torps and one or two ships can acutally get AM mines mounted. given discussions between people with enough pull to get these sort of changes made, ONLY AMEs and AM torps are likely to be available for human factions, and AM torps will very likely require you to capture a planet with a kluth hub.
weapon-wise, kluth's punch isnt in "1 extra front weapon slot", not the number of weapons but that their weapons do more damage per hit than a compareable ugto or icc ship, which can do more damage over time. take ruptors for example, their range is closer to 200gu, where as a SCL is only about 150, AND ruptors do full damage at max range, where CLs piddle out the farther away the target is. AM torps like wise, most single shot damage of any torpedo, which is balenced out by having less of them, and more energy drain than a proton or fusion torp of the same level.
most of kluths weapons are also mounted to cover the fore arc, which gives them more firepower in one arc (even if it is the front) than a comparable human ship, this allows kluth to run in at a target, get off an alpha or two and then recloak to repair and regain some energy once they're past their target. and as a bonus (aside from eccm pinging which is also on the books to be changed/fixed and beacons (more changes there)) kluth are pretty much undetectable while cloaked, allowing them to sneak up in to a position to hit enemies where they're weak, such as in the rear
It would be nice if each faction had tech that no other faction can fit on their ships that are absolutly awsome and that fits their factions main strength, but they don't really (barring dread/station only ones)
flux wave, flux cannon, gauss guns, pulse shield, fighters, core weapons, aux shield gens (if they're still in) cloak, auto hull repair, most kluth tech (see above), sabots (will probably be icc only) torpedoes (mostly faction only, see above), emp partical cannons and railguns (will probably be faction only respectivly). things like IT missiles, AR, pulse beams, chem lasers, reactors, drives, scanners, eccm, ecm, tractors, beacons will still be common on either faction
Also, becons are a problem. What they do is fine, but the time on them is what really hurts the kluth. Becons time limit needs to be toned down A LOT. Make it a 15-20, maybe 30 second thing. Make people have to decide how to limit themselves on using them, not mashing the space bar firing 2+ becons per shot, what's max level give, 20 becons? Give them a long reload or something or the above mentioned change.
beacons are also in for some changes, what those will be are debatable. as it stands now, beacons have their own slot in ships equiped with them, and beacons can not be changed to or from any other item
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2006-02-15 18:09
Quote:
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On 2006-02-15 16:50, Ase wrote:
What you see here is what Backslash loves to do most, which is disagree, granted he has an almost non-existant to small point other then to say, "no you're wrong" and belittle those who can't do what he can.
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So just because I have a lot of experience with the game, and each faction (I do have other accounts of which I play on each faction with), I'm not allowed to output my opinions here? Just so you know, me and Drafell worked for hours and hours to come up with a plan of action (of sorts) for DarkSpace. We know Faustus wanted to concentrate on combat, since it's what is most fun, and where everything is concentrated around. Currently, that's hard, with ICC having uber shields, UGTO and Kluth having crippling bugs, and bombing being extremely prestigious. We came up with a few fixes per side to event things out. Most of the fixes where K'luth, and they included cloak timer fixes, and beacon fixes (so they don't actually make kluth visable). So I'm not against K'luth, like so many believe. I'm pushing for them to be what they always where supposed to be... hit and run. Not giving K'luth a lot of armour, FORCES them into hit and run, which a lot of people don't like because certain players seem to want to be able to duke it out against human counterparts... which isn't supposed to happen.
Like doran mentioned above, Kluth weapons now do significantly more damage now that levels are set to hull. A dread fluxing a scout WILL take it's armour down a lot, because a dread has a lot more power to put into it's weapons system. And a scout shouldn't be anywhere near 200 gu from a dread, it's just going to get fried. However, a dread fluxing a cruiser, or even firing on it, is going to do a lot less than it did against a scout. This balances things out. There's also set weapon layouts, so no more elite picket or escort destroyers.
So you see, it's not all against K'luth. There are a lot of changes happening that will make it fairer for all. ICC will probablt recieve a significant shield reduction now that levels are set (no upgrading), and K'luth will recieve a significant boost to their cloak. This will allow them to pull off their attacks, and cloak again, without being beaconed and recieving near instant death.
Now, there's a reason I say "No, you're wrong", and that's because they/you are. Now, bare in mind that cloaking and beacons will probably be fixed, as Tael and some others have mentioned now, if you have added armour, that just allows you to hit and run, or hit and tank. Edventually, you'll get kluth who just constantly want to play it like a human pilot. Always uncloaked, doing damage, and taking damage. But K'luth ships are just not designed for that. They never where meant to take damage, and back in the original days, K'luth never even had armour, but their weapons did a lot more damage.
I say it again, and repeat what Doran said, because it's the more important aspect here. Because levels are now set, K'luth weapons will most probably do a lot more damage to human ships. Beams probably need a bit of work energy/damage wise, but other than that, K'luth ships hurt. They don't need the extra armour, otherwise this patch will turn into another one that favours K'kuth (CL2K destroyers/flux siphons/etc). We don't want that... We also don't want uber ICC ships flying around, or ED's or PD's picking holding off entire fleets. Or half of DarkSpace reaching Grand Admiral in a day! This is what beta is exactly for, testing, testing, testing and more testing.
If you feel K'luth are too weak, do some tests. And there's no point doing a duke á duke test, because Kluth ships aren't meant to take on human ships head on. Perfect example is mine and Dorans AD v EAD test.
Head on, I won without shield cycling, then he won with shield cycling. Now, that strikes me as uber (as most ICC pilots will rotate). But in battle, you don't sit still and fire on the same arc, and it doesn't take advantage of the UGTO's no-drain armour. So we started to fly around and battle. Too which point, we saw that the EAD was a little light on energy, and the AD had a little too much, but aside from that, it was almost bang on perfect.
I've been in beta a lot the past few days, and I havn't seen many K'luth v UGTO tests, or any others being carried out (infact, the only real tests have been Draf's bombing one, and mine and Dorans EAD v AD to my knowledge).
Try and get a battle between you and an equal counterpart ship. Say the Scale v the Torp Cruiser. Get a pilot of equal skill (no point taking on a combat vet if you're a noobie, he's going to own you), and start a battle. Don't use items/weapons/objects/configurations that will be removed or taken away in a few updates time, because that's just pointless and voids the entire battle. Doran accidently fired an Ion Cannon at me, and we had to void the test because we knew that the IC would probably be removed. Then start fighting each other. If the enemy doesn't use beacons, or eccm pinging. You'll find that Kluth do have a significantly easier time than the current patch.
That's why I say "no" to such things. Because I know that if armour gets changed, it could have a detrimental effect down the line, when simpler things, such as changing cloak times and beacon effects, can have a much more easier way of balancing things out.
- Jack
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James Bum007
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: April 23, 2003
Posts: 480
From: Queens, New York
| Posted: 2006-02-15 19:55
Quote:
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On 2006-02-14 19:11, Borgie *SC* wrote:
i noticed that dred armor is way stronger
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Lets not pick on Kluth armor, we being nerved long enough, now let us enjoy what we have and deserve.
Thank you.
"Nough Said"
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Hellaciouss
Vice Admiral
Joined: May 18, 2004
Posts: 22
| Posted: 2006-02-15 23:38
Quote:
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On 2006-02-15 18:09, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
Quote:
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On 2006-02-15 16:50, Ase wrote:
What you see here is what Backslash loves to do most, which is disagree, granted he has an almost non-existant to small point other then to say, "no you're wrong" and belittle those who can't do what he can.
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So just because I have a lot of experience with the game, and each faction (I do have other accounts of which I play on each faction with), I'm not allowed to output my opinions here? Just so you know, me and Drafell worked for hours and hours to come up with a plan of action (of sorts) for DarkSpace. We know Faustus wanted to concentrate on combat, since it's what is most fun, and where everything is concentrated around. Currently, that's hard, with ICC having uber shields, UGTO and Kluth having crippling bugs, and bombing being extremely prestigious. We came up with a few fixes per side to event things out. Most of the fixes where K'luth, and they included cloak timer fixes, and beacon fixes (so they don't actually make kluth visable). So I'm not against K'luth, like so many believe. I'm pushing for them to be what they always where supposed to be... hit and run. Not giving K'luth a lot of armour, FORCES them into hit and run, which a lot of people don't like because certain players seem to want to be able to duke it out against human counterparts... which isn't supposed to happen.
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I'm not even going to bother with a long response cuase it's not worth it. Take a look at who you responded too first and ask yourself if he's really a newb and has no idea what he's talking about. You've "experimented and tested" with Kluth, he has basically played them forever.
In your post you said you had no problem flying Kluth, and said you couldn't understand why everyone but a single didgit few has problems. Basically, you called him a noob, no matter how you put the words together, and everyone else who 'can't seem to understand' the kluths 'supposed' advantages. He is frustrated with how the Kluth have been handled, and handled for a very long time (as well as a lot of other people), as he's mentioned in chat with me. I'm sure he knows how to play hit and run. I LOVE hit and run type scenes cept when I feel like playing an invincible ICC scout. Sadly the Kluth don't have the means to hit and run anywhere near how well they should be able to, so we have to ask for armor upgrades so we can survive till we are able to cloak again.
Arrogance is one of the worst traits a person can have, btw.
[ This Message was edited by: Ase on 2006-02-15 23:56 ]
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Borgie
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 2256
From: close by
| Posted: 2006-02-16 00:43
Quote:
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On 2006-02-15 19:55, James Bum 007 wrote:
Quote:
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On 2006-02-14 19:11, Borgie *SC* wrote:
i noticed that dred armor is way stronger
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Lets not pick on Kluth armor, we being nerved long enough, now let us enjoy what we have and deserve.
Thank you.
"Nough Said"
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im not picking on it i loved the fact i could fire off 2 rounds on a bd and not be dead
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2006-02-16 04:42
Quote:
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On 2006-02-15 23:38, Ase wrote:
Quote:
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On 2006-02-15 18:09, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
Quote:
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On 2006-02-15 16:50, Ase wrote:
What you see here is what Backslash loves to do most, which is disagree, granted he has an almost non-existant to small point other then to say, "no you're wrong" and belittle those who can't do what he can.
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So just because I have a lot of experience with the game, and each faction (I do have other accounts of which I play on each faction with), I'm not allowed to output my opinions here? Just so you know, me and Drafell worked for hours and hours to come up with a plan of action (of sorts) for DarkSpace. We know Faustus wanted to concentrate on combat, since it's what is most fun, and where everything is concentrated around. Currently, that's hard, with ICC having uber shields, UGTO and Kluth having crippling bugs, and bombing being extremely prestigious. We came up with a few fixes per side to event things out. Most of the fixes where K'luth, and they included cloak timer fixes, and beacon fixes (so they don't actually make kluth visable). So I'm not against K'luth, like so many believe. I'm pushing for them to be what they always where supposed to be... hit and run. Not giving K'luth a lot of armour, FORCES them into hit and run, which a lot of people don't like because certain players seem to want to be able to duke it out against human counterparts... which isn't supposed to happen.
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I'm not even going to bother with a long response cuase it's not worth it. Take a look at who you responded too first and ask yourself if he's really a newb and has no idea what he's talking about. You've "experimented and tested" with Kluth, he has basically played them forever.
In your post you said you had no problem flying Kluth, and said you couldn't understand why everyone but a single didgit few has problems. Basically, you called him a noob, no matter how you put the words together, and everyone else who 'can't seem to understand' the kluths 'supposed' advantages. He is frustrated with how the Kluth have been handled, and handled for a very long time (as well as a lot of other people), as he's mentioned in chat with me. I'm sure he knows how to play hit and run. I LOVE hit and run type scenes cept when I feel like playing an invincible ICC scout. Sadly the Kluth don't have the means to hit and run anywhere near how well they should be able to, so we have to ask for armor upgrades so we can survive till we are able to cloak again.
Arrogance is one of the worst traits a person can have, btw.
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Actually, I was more refering to the fact that some players seem to think Kluth have been nerfed so, so, so badly, when infact they've just had a slight hit from the nerf bat (and it's hardly a significant hit). The fact that he said that flux does 50% armour damage to kluth says to me "This person can't test, or hasn't flown kluth". Because, I know for a fact (I tested it yesterday), that flux does not (and cannot) do 50% armour damage to a kluth ship of same size (even one below it). Now, someone who's flown K'luth since forever (apparently) comes along and says he tested this, and it does 50% damage, that screams "Not knowing what he's talking about". Too quite a significant degree. And it scares me that perhaps Faustus, or Tael (who to my knowledge don't play release, or beta everynight to test things (that's why they rely on player feedback)) might catch wind of this and just go "Ragg = Long term Kluth player = when he says Kluth = bad they must = bad, so must make change.". I really, really, really don't want another patch where we find Kluth in another high-spot, neither do I want another patch that puts anyone else up there. And I think an armour boost, along with other significant changes, could just tip it in their balance... again.
Like I've said time and time again. There seems to be no problem with K'luth in general, it's that some of their hit and run tactics don't seem to be working. The culprit, is the cloaking times, beacons and ECCM pinging (when it rarely happens). There's no problem with armour, armour serves its purpose amazingly well (it allows you to take damage for a few hits, then when you cloak, it repairs).
Think about it.
With the armour changes, and supposed cloak and beacon changes... You uncloak, fire, fire, fire, take a bit of damage, keep firing (slight duke here), and then recloak when you think you're taking near hull. You fly around for a minute or two, back up to near 100% armour, and the enemy is still barely 10-15% up on what he was a minute ago. You do this again and again, and it just screams uber to me. Especially if you add other ships to the equasion.
The armour, as I see it, was put there purely because it allows you to take a few hits, whilst you get your one or two alpha's off. Basiclly a temporary barrier to stop you taking hull damage.
Oh, and angry at the way Kluth have been handled for a long time? So are most of DarkSpace. Since from very early versions, K'luth have almost had the upperhand every-single-patch. Going from CL2K's on every ship, to 8-flux-Siphons, to having their best combat ship unlocked at VA (whereas everyone else had admiral), not too mention unbeatable destroyers... It's high time that K'luth have been pulled back to near what they should be.
Everytime I play kluth, it's "He ECCM pinged me", when I watched, it's usually just the fact that the player went within the ECCM range of a player with it on, so it jumped his signature up (that or the player ran out of energy (it's easy to tell when that happens)).
I've seen little to no testing of Kluth ships in there, nore any other type... I fail to see how someone can say "Kluth too weak", when hardly anyone's been on and tested them, including Ragglock himself.
That's my main beef.
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2006-02-16 05:27
Quote:
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On 2006-02-15 23:38, Ase wrote:
Sadly the Kluth don't have the means to hit and run anywhere near how well they should be able to, so we have to ask for armor upgrades so we can survive till we are able to cloak again. |
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Not to become involved in the personal attack/flame war side of this debate, I do have a response:
Jack's point, and in fact a number of other voices of the community, is that the logic here is not perfect. Lets dissect.
Premise: Kluth aren't able to hit and run effectively.
Causes: Low armor; poor timers on the Cloak; Kluth weapon weaknesses; ECCM pinging; imbalanced Beacons; imblanaced enemy ships.
Solution: ...
This is where the problem comes in. You seem to be looking at it from only one angle, and deciding that with all the problems Kluth is facing, increasing armor will solve their troubles. However, there are many other options.
Cloak could be rebalanced to allow it to work faster (especially on the decloak).
On similar notes, pinging needs to be fixed, further improving the Cloak.
Change the way Beacons work and you'll add some staying power by effectively giving back the cloak, since now it is half lost when turned off.
Weapons could be changed (faster recharge time, higher damage but double energy cost - for example - to allow a hell of a first hit or three, but energy neuter after that.. time to run).
Enemy ships may be overpowered in general, or certain ones which Kluth often face, giving the impression of weak Kluth.
Thus, these situations are more complicated than they may first appear - and also difficult to balance, when you realize how many factors go into a ship, and a faction in general. Its a balancing act with hundreds of plates on the tray.
Anyway. The point is, try not to shoot down one approach or advocate one approach to the exclusion of all others. Think about the problem creatively and you may realize a simple tweak in another system or two would rule out the need to completely redesign Kluth ships (or reoutfit them with armor, for example). And please stop calling eachother stubborn, idiots, closed minded, and whatever other nice insults you come up with for those with whom you disagree.
Thanks.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2006-02-16 05:44
Exactly!
It's just my opinion, and it requires testing, as do all things, but if the cloak is fixed (beacons, pinging, etc), then I think that might just be enough to fix K'luth, and make them balanced.
- Jack
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