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Excessive res lost value |
Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
|  Posted: 2005-06-28 00:12
I crashed some stock ICC ships, to check the new pres lost, came up with these:
Station: 600
Dread: 350
Cruiser: 100
Destroyer: 35
Frigate: 15
Scout: 10
Engineer: 20
Supply: 30
Transport: 10
These seem a bit excessive, especially for the smaller ships. Newer players are going to be deep in negative pres, if you take the death rates of release scouts/frig/tranny as any indication, and they're not gonna be able to get out. I'd think something along these lines would be a lot more reasonable:
Station: 500
Dread: 200-250 (Elite Dreads)
Cruiser: 50
Destroyer: 15
Frigate: 5
Scout: 0-1
Engineer: 10
Supply: 20
Transport: 10
The increased pres loss I thought was to punish suiciders, however even my suggestion does little for the over-whelming majority of suiciders... AC. Even at 10 pres per run it's still profitable to go random bombing. The only solution is to take a bio off the AC and whack one or two on the clavate. The AC will remain a powerful ship, bombs like a frig, drops like a tranny, and cloaks. But they can't go around solo bombing like they still can in beta.
100 for cruiser is also too much. It's getting at the point where you might be only barely profitable getting in one. We do a lot less hull damage now so less pres, though it's somewhat offset by pres for armour damage. Still it's not enough.
Sure, slow down pres gain, but by how much?
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Mithrandir
Chief Marshal
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 1276
| Posted: 2005-06-28 05:41
Just as a note, keep in mind that the prestige lost scales by rank; Midshipman hardly lose anything for deaths. In fact, you're an FA, so the levels may be even higher for GAs.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-06-28 05:46
Also bear in mind that smaller ships are now a lot more armoured, no more one hit kills.
That all seems fine to me.
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Mithrandir
Chief Marshal
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 1276
| Posted: 2005-06-28 06:46
Some notes:
Costs vary depending upon the value of the gadgets on the ships as well. Here's some notes I took while testing.
Ship Type - Rank while testing
profile values (self explanatory)
difference (the point)
UGTO Dictor - 2RA
3411.17 initial, 0.3 res lost
3278.8 ending, 5255.2 res lost
132.4 prestige from 5255 res lost
ICC Dictor - 2RA
3200 starting prestige, 0 resources lost
3069 ending prestige, 5205.899902
131 prestige from 5206 res lost
ICC Dictor - Ensign
70 starting, 0 res lost
50.4 ending, 743.7 res lost
19.6 prestige from 744 res lost
ICC Dictor - GA
90000 starting, 0 res lost
89776.9 ending, 8924.4 res lost
223.1 prestige from 8924 res lost
This proves that things scale by rank
ICC Heavy Cruiser - GA
90000 starting, 0 res lost
89910.4 ending, 8956.8
90 prestige from 8957 res lost
6000 res lost is from the hull; I stripped one via the editor to have nothing, and it gave me 6000 res lost.
89910.4 starting, 8956.8... plus 18 million credits to upgrade to max levels
89451.8 ending, 21926.4
459 prestige from 12970 res lost
This proves that gadget type and levels affect res lost
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So we know that your rank determines how much res lost you get. We also know that the type of ship you die in determines res lost - but gadgets on those ships have a much greater effect than the actual hull.
This is all well and good - it provides a value to things like HMAs, Interdictors, WHs, etc. I'm happy with this.
However, it also means that when you upgrade, the value of your ship skyrockets. Lonectzn and I were talking, and we would find it perfectly reasonable for your ship's value to increase by 10-15.. maybe 25% as you scale up levels. But the 500% increase of the heavy cruiser is excessive.
(posted as a player, not a dev/admin)
[small][ This Message was edited by: Mithrandir on 2005-06-28 06:48 ][/small]
[ This Message was edited by: Mithrandir on 2005-06-28 07:01 ]
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Meko
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 03, 2004
Posts: 1956
From: Vancouver
| Posted: 2005-06-28 07:28
gees.... 500%.
i think the regular should be boosted and the upgraded be toned down a bit...
and 18 MILLION credits to upgrade a cruiser?!?! crying out lout, i dont even have two million!
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2005-06-28 09:02
On an unsubbed account I crashed a tranny/scout/frig.
In all cases res loss was 0, 1 pres lost for crashing. So, indeed, it's rather well done in that respect.
Also have to clarify my tests for dread pres loss were in error somewhat, since gadgets and rank play such a large role.
On ICC with 47k pres:
Combat Dread: 280 pres lost
Command Carrier: 350 pres lost
Assault Dread: 340 pres lost
CC is likely due to the HMA.
Knowing now it scales, 100 pres for a cruiser at FA rank seems pretty good. By that time you should know how to fly them (And not, like me, constantly into planets  ).
As Mithrandir pointed out, the res loss for an upgraded ship is just phenomenal. That was just a HC, with none of the high cost weapons like dictor/hma etc. It's also one of the lightest combat cruisers, with all low-cost weapons. So it's very likely the effect is much more significant.
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Binks
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: November 28, 2003
Posts: 469
| Posted: 2005-06-28 10:16
Quote:
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On 2005-06-28 05:46, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
Also bear in mind that smaller ships are now a lot more armoured, no more one hit kills.
That all seems fine to me.
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Uhh...no...cruisers can still instagib scouts easily, I know because while I didn't have any rank (due ot pres lost thing) I grabbed a scout and modded it to full levels (10 on what I could, highest on everything else)...jumped into battle and mainly beaconed luth...eventually a scale got mad and jumped right next to me...1 alpha killed me...as for the res loss, all this is gonna do is encourage fleeing...right now battles are mainly hit and run unless you can't then suicide...all this is gonna do is make people run at 50% armor because they don't want the huge pres loss...
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Faustus
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 2748
From: Austin, Texas
| Posted: 2005-06-28 13:06
Quote:
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On 2005-06-28 07:28, Meko wrote:
gees.... 500%.
i think the regular should be boosted and the upgraded be toned down a bit...
and 18 MILLION credits to upgrade a cruiser?!?! crying out lout, i dont even have two million!
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Yeah, EXACTLY... 18 million is about right to fully upgrade every component of a ship to max. We want upgraded devices to be something that is valued... if we make it too cheap, then people won't value the upgrades.
-Richard
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Bobamelius
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 2074
From: Ohio
| Posted: 2005-06-28 13:45
Problem is, those who already have tons of money will run around in their fully upgraded ships and swat down us poor people like flies.
Especially without a viable way for us poor people to make money.
[ This Message was edited by: Bobamelius on 2005-06-28 13:45 ]
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Mersenne Twister
Fleet Admiral
Joined: May 11, 2003
Posts: 1161
From: Sector C Test Labs and Contol Facilities
| Posted: 2005-06-28 14:04
but if you make it too expensive, all you'll see is scouts frigs and dessies running around (both to avoid going bankrupt and to avoid res lost, but then nobody's getting combat pres because armor/shield hits dont count..), using whatever parts they can strip off a dread (which is free) and people will build depot farms all over the place and jump out of combat before they take hull damage. . in which case upgradeing might as well get pulled out since thats pretty much how ships were modded before the stress test, even better would be to keep .481-2 modding, and leave levels out entirely
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