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Dreads Still Too Weak |
Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
|  Posted: 2005-05-29 16:52
Well, First time, I was talking with Dwarden, Bomber frigate comes along and starts bombing an ICC planet, so, me, in a Combat Dread (Which I assumed took care of smaller ships best) jumped to the planet. The planet had plenty of depots, I wasnt worried. The frigate jumped out, and returned with a Destroyer. A moderator came in a Pirate Cargo ship, I left it alone and aimed towards the destroyer.
The destroyer shot towards the Pirate cargo ship, which was starting to hide behind me. I left it alone and continued shooting towards the destroyer, which remained within 300 gus at all times and sometimes got as close as 50 gus.
The Destroyer was modded with lvl 8 armor and other high-level weaponry. I wasnt able to bring it down past 60 percent armor, even after firing for 10 minutes straight.
Later, me and the same destroyer did another test, I modded my dread with lvl 6 Standard Lasers instead of lvl 0, I also upped reactor, and drives. We both faced off 1 on 1, and he was using lvl 4 armor instead of lvl 8.
The result was shocking... we were both ripping eachother's shield/armor apart at the same percentage. This with me with lvl 8 shield and armor, and he only has lvl 4 armor. It was a real eye-opener.
Needless to say, the solution is simple. The whole concept of Dessies standing a chance against dreads were flawed to begin with. Trying to force Frigate vs Frigate, Destroyer vs Destroyer, Dread vs Dread combat make the whole presteige system useless. If Dreadnoughts are completely ineffective against smaller ships than they would have never been built in the first place.
In additoin, the shields suck.... they still torn apart far faster than armor, and create huge energy drain.... Theres just no point to them.
Also, the Combat Dread specializes in missiles, which cant hit worth a damn either. Even the smallest anti-ship missiles cant hit a destroyer.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-05-29 17:45
You dont get the point.
You were using standard CL's. They suck royaly at damage, unless against low level armour. To do more damage, you need HCL's at level8, or high level cannons. I can rip appart a frigate or destroyer, and dreads in seconds with level 8 cannons. Also, your ICC Active shields are going to be nasty, they will draw more power, but the defence you get from them will be stupid.
The point is, level 8 armour is kick-ass. It ups the defence rate on low level ships a lot, which means no one hit kills. But, if you have all level 8 weaponry, and get rid of the crap stuff like (SCL's), you should be killing him WAY faster.
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Kaganader
Vice Admiral
Lethal Assault Group
Joined: January 28, 2004
Posts: 38
From: In a Black Hole
| Posted: 2005-05-29 18:57
hey Red whenever you want to go test it again I'm ready + I want to Test out how Strong lv8 Cls would be up close and personal...hehe ^_^
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2005-05-29 19:39
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You were using standard CL's. They suck royaly at damage, unless against low level armour. To do more damage, you need HCL's at level8, or high level cannons.
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HCLs drain your energy so badly that your energy banks would be gone in a single salvo. It doesnt really help that you have the shield energy drain either.
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I can rip appart a frigate or destroyer, and dreads in seconds with level 8 cannons.
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Give me one specific example and the exact modifications you used. Also, in this case there is still a problem, missiles are STILL goddamned useless. Theres not supposed to be one type of 'Kill-all' weapon.
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Also, your ICC Active shields are going to be nasty, they will draw more power, but the defence you get from them will be stupid.
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Im not exactly impressed with Reactive Shields (Which is FAR worse than even standard armor) and as far as I know, ive yet to see anything that would make me even impressed with active shield. Not to mention theres no real demonstration of a active shield above lvl 0.
[ This Message was edited by: RedXIII on 2005-05-29 20:02 ]
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DOM700 [-IMO-]
Fleet Admiral
Joined: July 26, 2001
Posts: 3175
From: Eckental, Germany, Sol-System
| Posted: 2005-05-30 02:35
I have to agree with the fact that shields are useless
Switching them off in the battle after they get killed (which happends quite fast) is the only good solution to get the energy needed to fight
Anyway....these fights are now endless, I dont want to see big fights with dozens of bored captains smashing the space bar repeatingly while the only happy guy is the supply pilot
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-05-30 03:17
Id like to say here, something thats nagged me since beta was beta.
DS has, every single version up until now, revolved around fast paced, get in and get action from the get-go kind of game. Almost arcade style, and thats what made DS appealing is that you could play it without having to invest enormous amounts of time into it.
Heres where it becomes flawed : This version is centralized in making the battles longer, MUCH longer. Longer than any person can deal with, long battles are for games like EvE, where your pounding each other for minutes on end for a scratch in the hull. Battles here one on one can take upwards of 10+ minutes, and still not be halfway through.
The version was also based on the concept of different arcs, in an attempt to discourage space bar mashers, unfortunately, all its done is literally force people to space bar mash for any considerable damage. But energy on all the ships wasnt designed for space bar mashing, thus, you have alot of long battles where everyone runs out of energy.
Do I like long battles? Maybe for a dread on dread encounter. But if a Dread is going against a destroyer on neigh point blank range, it shouldent be able to survive long even if the dread was stock and the dessie was outfitted to the max, simply because Dreadnoughts are designed with such firepower small ships shouldent stand a chance.
It doesnt make sense, simply, the way Dreads are supposed to be designed is that from far away, Dreadnoughts were lunch meat but if you got too close you were dead, and that entire concept is nulled now.
Cruisers are meant to be speedy attack warships, but theres something wrong when it can dish out more damage over any given space of time over a Dreadnought. Does that seem wrong in any way?
Destroyers, are supposed to be light attack ships, in numbers they can take down anything but if your ppoint blank with something larger and more loaded out it should not last longer than a few minutes, at best.
The growing trend I see is that Dreadnoughts usefullness is comming to be next to zero, when smaller ships can dish out more damage and take the same punishment as a Dreadnought, coupled with higher speeds, greater turning and a faster JD, its going to let people at the rank of about 2nd RA to have access to ships much more efficent than those at FA.
I think the biggest problem we see here, is that we changed the armor/hull ratings. If you took neigh every configuration from release, placed it in beta with the level system and the slot fixes, and kept armor and hull the the way it is in release, it would be perfect. Fast battles, but still slightly made slower by the level system and various new gadgets.
Its borked, and no one is interested in playing a DS slow enough we fall asleep mashing the spacebar.
-Ent
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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2005-05-30 06:23
Taken a look a tthe stock Combat Dread. It's loadout sucks pretty badly. But if you replace all those CL and lvl 0 railguns with lvl 4 railgun's, you have an entirely different animal.
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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2005-05-30 07:29
Ok. I have done a lot of testing in beta today about this 'supposed' problem. The issue you have is that the Destroyer can dodge most of the fire from the dread weapons. The CL are good up close but drain severe energy and at lvl 0 are really only good for point defense. If switched out for cannons then the probelm with damage no longer occurs. I tested the Combat Dread with a combination of lvl 2 and lvl 4 Railguns. Although it may not tear the destroyer to pieces, it still is easily able to best it in 1v1 combat. 2v1 is pretty much the same result. If you mod your dread to be able to kill smaller ships then you make yourself not so good vs other dreads which is all part of the whole rock/paper/scissors game. Stock dreads are designed to go against dreads and cruisers and to require combat support from smaller ships.
For a stock loadout the Combat Dread does suck pretty badly for damage output. But to be honest so do most ships. Everything looks fine to me.
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Thorium
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 05, 2004
Posts: 185
| Posted: 2005-05-30 08:44
cannt make dreads kill all ships... that would not be fun for the newer players... 1 on 1 ya you should beable to kill that destroyer but i also feel that a better pilot should be able to take on a ship one class higher than it one on one... to make the dread super strong takes that away... there should be a place and use for all ship types in a fleet (no foder doesnt count as a place in the fleet)... dreads have fire power armor and slow speed and never should be used with out escourt anyways... i find the best results come from useing dreads to force the other side from a planet...
realy what is needed is some mock battle senarios to play out (full fleet actions)... then we would have something to compare to the 1 on 1 fights (used to test/compare unlike and like classes) and standing still slug matches (more used to compare like classes)...
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2005-05-30 09:22
Thing is, Dreads in Darkspace were always supposed to be kill-all ships. They are big, nasty battleships with firepower, armor, and shielding up the ying-yang. A Destroyer going up against a Dread should be suicide. Its not.
And the whole paper rock scizzors thing undermines the whole point of the presteige system, again. If a Dread can be destroyed by an anti-ship destroyer than your going to have the issue, Whats the point of flying Dreadnoughts? If a destroyer can do the job just as well. Methinks you guys are failing to see the real issue here, Dreadnoughts are simply too common.
Also, if you guys have even forgotten, Resources lost is going to skyrocket immensely. Basically, losing a dread can cost you more than just a pretty penny in presteige. Nobodys going to fly a ship that can be bested by a Dread or Cruiser if they are going to lose a thousand presteige for it dying.
In addition, if Resource gathering rates are reduced immensely and dread costs skyrocket, it would help to make Dreads more rare. As I say again, Dreads are supposed to be very rare but very brutal killing machines.
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cannt make dreads kill all ships... that would not be fun for the newer players...
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Its not fair or fun for the Fleet Admiral if the newbie destroyer can trash that Dread. Especially since the Fleet Admiral EARNED his uber ship wheras the newbie did not.
[ This Message was edited by: RedXIII on 2005-05-30 09:26 ]
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Kaganader
Vice Admiral
Lethal Assault Group
Joined: January 28, 2004
Posts: 38
From: In a Black Hole
| Posted: 2005-05-30 10:59
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On 2005-05-30 03:17, The Star of Enterprise wrote:
The version was also based on the concept of different arcs, in an attempt to discourage space bar mashers, unfortunately, all its done is literally force people to space bar mash for any considerable damage. But energy on all the ships wasnt designed for space bar mashing, thus, you have alot of long battles where everyone runs out of energy.
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I don't Spacebar Smash, I use 3, 4 and 5 
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Thorium
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 05, 2004
Posts: 185
| Posted: 2005-05-30 13:20
the way thing are looking atm... guns are the thing to have and use... the small lasers/rupters have too shourt a range and dont do enough damage... this small change makes missiles more effective do to far less PD and far more missiles on ships...
and ya i did say one on one a dread should kill a destroyer... and modded with guns that dread can kill that destroyer...
why would you use small lasers/rupters anyway? when useing them for PD and heading to the target the missles get close enough to hurt you when the get shot down... may as well put on guns instead anyways... guns and torps, guns and torps...
edit...
took another look at the scl's, lvl0 110gu range, lvl8 150gu range, pulse beam lvl0 120 gu range...
not as short as i thought but still right on top of your target...
[ This Message was edited by: Thorium on 2005-05-30 14:19 ]
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2005-05-30 13:47
You are still telling me that the gaming system still has a blatent problem in it. Cannons SHOULDNT be the only thing to use, part of the point of the patch to begin with was to bring variety and give people the option to use different weapon systems that didnt suck.
Missiles are still shootdownable, they also have lame tracking ability making destroyers almost impossible to hit. Fighters suffer from this syndrome.
Lasers shouldnt be useless. In any case. They should be decent PD if configured right and they should do awesome damage.
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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2005-05-30 18:02
That is just the point. the dread CAN'T be destroyed by a single Destroyer. A dessy has no hope of killing a dread alone. But the dread CAN kill the dessy quite easily. Battles are a lot slower paced but the dread also has the option of ignoring the attacking dessy. Dreads arent the kil lall ships... you need smaller support ships to take out other dessies if your Dread isnt loaded out for dessy killing.
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2005-05-30 18:26
Drafell, as you seem to have ignored all content in this post. Let me remind you that in a 1 on 1 fight, the Dessy actually was able to do SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE to the Dread. By itself. No help.
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