| Author |
Ship Design Notes [2005-02-06 update] |
Tael
2nd Rear Admiral
Palestar
Joined: July 03, 2002
Posts: 3697
From: San Francisco Bay Area
|  Posted: 2005-02-06 15:03
Publish any comments or potential bugs with the ships updated in the beta update Febuary 6th, 2005 in this thread.
Please be as detailed as possible.
The following ships are included in this update:
- Following ICC Ships configurations updated: M239J, M245A, M190A, M190B, M192F, M194A, M194E, M251W, M230A, M231B, M247M, M235I, M248C, ST2111, ST2122, M40S, M42A, M44B, M45B, ME1522, MS40A, M21B, MS42A, MR110, MR115, MR125, M2200A, M2200D, M21A, M22B
- Following UTGO ships configurations updated: 7010, EAD, Torp Cruiser, ST-10, ST-11, ST-14, ST-75, ST-76, Command Dread, ST-79, ST-5 Interceptor, ST-6 Bomber, ST-7 Minelayer, ST-8 Harrier
Following Kluth Ship configurations updated: Claw, Shell, Stinger, Scale, Peircer, Beak, Nymph, Proboscis, Fang, Talon, Extruder, Carrier, Advance Carrier, Extractor, Worker, Adv Worker, Ultimate Worker
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Tael
2nd Rear Admiral
Palestar
Joined: July 03, 2002
Posts: 3697
From: San Francisco Bay Area
| Posted: 2005-02-06 15:05
* Noted there are two ICC Recon Scouts. The ICC Scout M21-A has been renamed to Assault Scout in next update.
* Armor on ICC Missile Cruiser not properly configured, double armor on Right side, updated source to fix this in next update.
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Axianda The Royal
Fleet Admiral
Terra Squadron
Joined: November 20, 2001
Posts: 4273
From: Axianda
| Posted: 2005-02-06 16:18
here's my advice for the ICC ships....
*coughs a couple of times*
sorry had to get that out 
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Axianda The Royal
Fleet Admiral
Terra Squadron
Joined: November 20, 2001
Posts: 4273
From: Axianda
| Posted: 2005-02-06 17:44
BTW, Railguns on the UGTO Command Dread?
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Strom"DaBum"Moon
Cadet
ExtraTerrestrial Space Bums
Joined: September 29, 2002
Posts: 419
From: 29.740456 X -095.500764
| Posted: 2005-02-06 23:22
After a little combat testing tonite, this is what stuck out to me.
1. While cloaked humans can see hull discharge's. ie venting gas, fire, and smoke. This along with concern three make kluth stealth and combat survival all but useless. (Bito told me he could see my smoke and got the kill on me with it)
2. Disrupter's seem a little underpower'd still. Granted these are all stock, and I have no idea what upgrading will do to them. However, four stock scale's should be able to do more than just 23% armorsheild damage collectively to a stock ICC heavy cruiser. That is my opinion at least.
3. Why no cloaked jumping? I understand no cloaked fighting or troop transporting. How can we be the master's of 1st strike, if we cant get to the strikezone in a timely maner? If I have to stop 2.5k out and drive in at half speed, I think my target will die of bordum before I can get there.
Again; these are thing's I have concern's about not complaits or rants. Before anybody jump's up and down. I know Beta is not set in stone, but if I dont give voice no one will ever know my opinion.
Allso I would like to see cloak timer a little shorter, humans ship's can get several shot's in on us before and after we can cloak due to slow speeds and long timer. It should not be instant, but about 30% to 50% less than now. Again i'm sure this is effected by upgrading, as I said above.
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AdmBito
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: October 04, 2002
Posts: 1249
From: Its hard out here for a pimp
| Posted: 2005-02-07 00:32
I'll say a few things then.
1) About the venting gases: That happens when you get about 40% hull. Humans, have to manual target too, so its still not easy to shoot you. Once your auto repair kicks in, you're fine. And it's kinda cool too.
2) Cloak time is short now. I was thinking it'd be longer. Shows our faction bias, eh?
3) Disruptors looks like they had a longer range than AM Torps. Does this change (range) with upgrades?
4) There needs to be a way to see what an object is when it is in a ships cargo. I shuold be able to see what level it is, and if it is a build, I should be able to tell what kind.
5) Railguns: 1400gu or more range, just about zero damage. Most cannons are like this. Seem to be useless except for sucking up energy, which they don't do either. Wave after wave after wave of fighter from a station did nothing to most ships.
6) Stations have no defenses. I realize I'm pleas are likely falling on deaf ears, but I don't want you to create an uber combat station. Just something that isnt a sitting prestige machine for the other factions. give it sort range weaponry so it cannot attack (heavy CL in large dose) and fighters, no torps. Maybe a few sort range missiles, and it is good to go.
7) UGTO have some weapon, Im not sure what, that flashes over and over. Not sure what it is (EMP wave maybe), it the effect is horrific in large doses. If you want to be sued for causing seisures, leave it. If not, get a new effect. At the very least, it gives massive headaches.
8) Also, seems Assault Cruiser has a lot of rear left arcs as compared to rear right. Should they be evened out?
[ This Message was edited by: AdmBito on 2005-02-07 00:37 ]
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2005-02-07 01:27
I note with concern that weapons are being seperated along...odd...classification lines.
For example, ICC Combat Destroyer has 6 Railguns...4 of Level 2 and 2 of Level 4...and 2 IT Missiles.
Recalling the balance stuff I worked on with Gid, there were supposed to be three sets of Weapon mounts: Small, Medium, and Large...and there was a Cannon/Torp/Missile for every size. You could theoretically swap Small Railguns with AR Missiles, or Medium Torpedoes with IT Missiles, or PCMs with Heavy Railguns.
However, I noticed that weapons are seperated into Weapon I, II, III, and IV slots, on an apparently random order...Railguns are Weapon I, AR Missiles, Torpedoes, and SABOT Rockets are Weapon II, IT Missiles and Gauss Guns are Weapon III, and PCMs are Weapon IV.
The real problem comes when a ship's default weapons are not set by their slot type, but by their LEVEL. I could take the Level 4 Railguns off of my Dessie, or the Level 5 Torpedoes off an Assault Cruiser, and put them on a SCOUT.
Same thing with Shields and Armor...they're rated by level, not size. Pull the armor from an EAD, put it on a Scout, and you've got a nigh-invincible impossible-to-hit ship.
I realize that the design plans may have changed since I worked on them, but the current system is almost as flawed as back when we had completely unrestricted modding.
On a seperate subject, you need to either A: Give missiles faster turn rates or B: Make them launch directly at their target. As it is currently, a Missile Cruiser or Destroyer will fire a salvo and missiles shoot off in 5-6 different directions. This results in them arriving at all different times and being picked off by point-defense with ease. I know missiles have gotten a damage and ammo upgrade, but unless this problem is fixed they're still useless.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-02-07 10:57
Quote:
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On 2005-02-07 00:32, AdmBito wrote:
I'll say a few things then.
7) UGTO have some weapon, Im not sure what, that flashes over and over. Not sure what it is (EMP wave maybe), it the effect is horrific in large doses. If you want to be sued for causing seisures, leave it. If not, get a new effect. At the very least, it gives massive headaches.
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EMP
That thing caused me to have to go and sit down for 10 minutes I got such a headache :/.
Weapons are underpowered.
Class to class damage isnt right, i'll explain more..
Dread > Cruiser
At the moment, dreads dont do much damage to a cruiser, it took me ages to get down Drafells AC and I was already taking hull damage. Dreads are meant to be the top of the line ships, something that you shouldnt be afriad to die in, Granted, I dont want DS to turn into Dreadspace, but people arnt going to want to fly something thats easier to kill than a cruiser.
Its up to the admins on how to tweak this, but the EAD inho, doesnt feel that Elite to me. The damage it does isnt enough for me to want to fly one, and it doesnt feel much of a "prize" for reaching Admiral with GC.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2005-02-07 12:21 ]
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Tael
2nd Rear Admiral
Palestar
Joined: July 03, 2002
Posts: 3697
From: San Francisco Bay Area
| Posted: 2005-02-07 12:38
The level system replaces part of the device level system.
Gideon had dropped the basic level system and wanted a level system for Beams, Missilies, and Projectile weapons that was all different. So you could not readily swap devices.
Device levels are as such:
0-3 Light
4-7 Medium
8-10 Heavy
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11-15 Special Rare Items (non-user upgradeables)
The highest level you can upgraded too is 10.
As you upgrade, Damage and Range are increased.
Armor strength is determined by hull size. So pulling level 8 armor from a station and putting it on a scout will not give you station scale armor.
Level 8 armor of Dread is only 83% as effective as level 8 of a station.
If you took level 8 armor off a station and placed it on your scout, it would only be 46% as strong.
Stations also have more armor and shield slots than other ships... So a dread with 2 level 8 armors in one arc vs a station with 3 armors in one arc only has 55% of the protection.
Some weapons that would quickly unbalance things if allowed to ramp up from level 0 to level 8 have been broken up into two classes.
Disruptor
Assault Disruptor
Chemical Laser Standard
Chemical Laser Heavy
Missiles, Torps, Projetile weapons require more power, longer delays, less ammo, fewer projectiles per volley, and speed decreases (extra mass of warhead) as you increase their range and firepower. Thus self balancing.
The EAD has one superweapon, currently only direct area damage is being calculated, Area damage is not being factored it. So mines, missiles, and torpedos are only doing about half of the damage they should do. I have spoken to F about this and he is checking into it right now.
Support stations (ICC only station upgraded) are just that, Support, giant supplys, they carry extra troops to be used in capping planets, they can create wormholes so the entire fleet can coordinate an attack and move in enmase while having max fuel available for withdraw. Its weapons are limited to 8 fighter bays for patrol craft, 4 AR Missiles, 8 Railguns, 4 Pulse beams, and 8 CL beams. The principle reason of the 12 beams are for Point defense. Stations can take a beating now so they can hold out until help arrives or they can open a wormhole out.
Stations are not ment to be alone, they need support vesseles to protect them. And vessels need them for quicker repairs. We may add a 4th repair bay to the ICC station to further define its role as a support platform.
There are plans for Line/Combat stations for each faction, they will have heavy weapons for combat, but little to no repair bays and very little PD weapondry.
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Tael
2nd Rear Admiral
Palestar
Joined: July 03, 2002
Posts: 3697
From: San Francisco Bay Area
| Posted: 2005-02-07 12:42
EAD has one Heavy CL without a weapons arc, corrected for next update to fire Fore, Port, Starboard.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-02-07 13:15
Note:
Faction set weapons are NOT faction set. IE.
Ruptors can be used on an EAD and std armour can be used on a scale.
Something I have been thinking of aswell...so here goes.
You say :
0-3 Light
4-7 Medium
8-10 Heavy
Well thats fine, except that a scout or destroyed can then change out for a heavy weapon, which im not sure is such a good idea.
Perhaps if lower hull types...say...
Scout > level 0 only
Frigate > level 2 only
Destroyer > level 3 only
Cruiser > level 6 only
Dread > Unmaxed.
This would help deal with balance, and would stop the old case of CL2k on destroyers etc. Rare items should be able to override these levels, but since they are rare, there wont be packs of them flying around.
This would mean that a lower level class hull...say a cruiser, can not take on a dread alone without help.
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Mariano (peace)
Cadet
Joined: June 24, 2002
Posts: 1006
From: Rainbow Station
| Posted: 2005-02-07 13:19
there is a design flawn on the Stinger, Beak, Proboscis, Fang, Talon, Extruder. all armor is displayed in front of the ship.
[ This Message was edited by: Mariano (peace) on 2005-02-07 13:46 ]
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2005-02-07 15:44
Hmm...okay then, sounds alright...but should probably double-check once gadgets are upgradeable that any given ship can only reliably use weapons for a certain size.
...OOH! I just had a nifty idea.
You said armor scales with ship size...could you scale other stuff too? Say, weapon ammo?
I.e. a Scout with a lvl 1 Railgun has less ammo than a Frigate with the same weapon, which has less than a Destroyer with the same weapon, and so on...that way, you could give Level 10 Railguns or Torpedoes a very small *default* ammo count, so that only Dreads and Cruisers can carry the ammo to use them for more than a few shots in combat.
I mean really, ammo storage would be decided by the size of the ship, not the level of the weapon...but a more powerful weapon's ammo takes up more room. Hence a Scout with Level 10 Torpedoes could only carry 5, whereas a Dread could carry 60 or so.
[ This Message was edited by: Jim Starluck on 2005-02-07 15:44 ]
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2005-02-07 15:54
Also, a few ship-classes that are listed as updated aren't appearing that way in-game...ICC Carrier Cruiser, for example.
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Tael
2nd Rear Admiral
Palestar
Joined: July 03, 2002
Posts: 3697
From: San Francisco Bay Area
| Posted: 2005-02-07 16:36
Kluth will be able to mount armor other than Organic, that will not change.
But Auto Hull Repair and Cloak will only work if you have Organic Hull. So its a serious trade off to consider.
Gideons original time code for the QST ment that it didnt arm for 600 gu, have lowered it to 300 gu since it has a 200 gu area of effect.
Mines were doing to low of damage, have increased the damage level of mines to double of their current strength.
A point you are missing on weapon levels and ports is that a scount can not equip a CL Heavy. The CL Standard replaces CL300 and CL500, the CL Heavy replaces CL 1000 and CL2000 with room just above for 2 levels of expansion.
This keeps smaller ships from outfitting super strong laser beams.
Their torp ports are limited, smaller ships will not have the energy for sustained combat if they upgrade their weapons to far. They get a good first or second shot, but will loose out in the drawn out battle as their batteries deplete and their weapons dont recharge.
The higher the device level, the less ammo you get and the slower it moves. So its easier to avoid. Its range is extended though.
Basicly you may end up dealing the same or slightly more damage from a torp lvl 10 vs level 0, the bonus is you deal more per strike thus more over a shorter time as long as your power holds out.
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