| Author |
Suggested Sagitarius layout + AI suggestions |
Tellaris
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: April 30, 2002
Posts: 830
From: Land of Chocolate
|  Posted: 2011-05-24 21:08
MV Layout!
Sorry for the largeish picture, it didn't scale down very well.
Anyway.
Notes-
The side systems (Luyten, R33, New System) should be small. (~7 planets or so). The central system, Epsilon Ind was chosen simply due to its size. It has multiple "mini systems" of planets, and its sheer size will make controlling the entire system difficult. Gate placement would help a huge amount to this end, as well. (I'll discuss this in a later post)
Pros (as I see them)
-Small side systems provide quick and easy access to homesytems
-Large central system encourages more varried fighting- there are a lot of planets to choose from, and almost none of them are particularly close together in clusters, making defence a bit more difficult. It is also VERY spread out. (Increasing the spacing a bit more may further aid this)
Cons (as I see them)
-VERY symetrical. (Hexagonal except for one system)
-MI are kind of off to the side, R33 will get it a lot
-It is fairly difficult to balance 2 AI factions and 3 player factions into a MV build where everyone has equal access. As such, all sides have access to at least one bunch of AI enemies. The only problem here is that the MI gets shuffled away from ICC and put beside K'Luth. UGTO still has to deal with them anyway. (To create a truely balanced sag, it may require removal of the AI faction "homesystems" or condensing them into the middle, but then the gate lines look weird)
PLANET COUNTS:
Current ----------------------- New (proposed)
System - PlanetNum(star)-- System - PlanetNum(Star)
R33 ------------- 14(1) ------- R33 ------------- 7(1)
Cinncinati ------ 13(1) ------- Cinncinati ----- 13(1)
Kaus Borealis - 4(1) --------- Kaus Borealis - 4(1)
Epsilon Eri ----- 18(1) ------- Epsilon Eri ----- 18(1)
Luyten --------- 12(2) ------- New System -- 7(1)
Tau Ceti ------- 16(2)-------- Epsilon Ind ---- 39(1)
--------------------------------- Tau Ceti ------- 16(2)
--------------------------------- Luyten --------- 7(2)
Total:---------- 77(85) ------ Total:----------- 111(121)
Possible changes
- Link between Kaus and R33 does not exist, forcing players (and AI) to jump inbetween.
-Pirates can also have their own system, like MI, off of Luyten, making Luyten neutral
-R33 and Cinncinati switched
-Faction Home System planet count set to 15
-Central system planet count set to 30
What do you all think (about map layout)?
-Also please note that the devs are unwilling to revert to older map designs. (likely due to technical issues) So please don't post "I like map from (version #) better!"
Suggest modifications to the existing map or whole new map designs. Its more constructive.
AI suggestions
-AI bought with credits lifetime increased to 2 hours (Reason - Wait period between battles can easily exceede an hour, making AI a bad investment, not also counting its suicidal tendencies)
-AI Pirate count in MV greatly increased
-Pirate and MI counts dynamically adjusted based on server load - Lots of stuff going on, they will not spawn, or have exteremly low counts, but during off hours, can become somewhat numerous. (Should not outpace factional AI)
-AI spawning from shipyards preferentially instead of Gates (But does not cost resources)
-Ability to devote excess shipyard resources to increasing AI count (slightly)
-Chance for AI bought with credits to spawn an Elite variant of that hull size (Should be quite small)
-AI Transport count limited to 1 per 2 planets, rather then each planet spawning its own (cuts down on transport spam when large numbers of ports are used)
What do you think about AI?
Again! Please try to make constructive feedback! Faustus has clearly stated that AI are here to stay, so saying ("I don't think there should be any AI") is not helpful!
[ This Message was edited by: Tellaris on 2011-05-25 12:06 ]
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Marius Falix
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 05, 2010
Posts: 268
From: Luyten
| Posted: 2011-05-24 21:24
imm sure i heard it mentioned that they were trying to keep away from symetrical maps as much as possible as it just wouldnt be realistic (i know its a game etc)
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-Shadowalker-™
Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: September 23, 2007
Posts: 709
From: Shadows
| Posted: 2011-05-24 21:29
i like the old 1.483 map, without the other systems...
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Dakili
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 07, 2007
Posts: 86
From: Quebec
| Posted: 2011-05-24 22:17
Well since theres a new topic about that I guess ill put my post i posted a few ago in an other thread.
I just though of that and not sure If It would be usefull but..
Why not making Luyten a Full Pirate system except maybe for a Planet or 2-3? Which they could be either terran or something else. And maybe spawn more pirates too.. I mean. I barely see a destroyer or 2 and sometimes the pirate station. Its pirates afterall. They're supposed to be agressive.
Why making that a pirate system? Just think about it a second. You have a 3 faced battlefield and some people stuck there who doesn't care about who wins or anything but just want to survive. Smugglers, Theives and all that kind. Isn't that what Pirates are all about?
Like that people could try to capture the small cluster that is capturable that could give them some advantage. Like I said, maybe a terran planet so they could make a SY or anything else. And what would change from right now? Well the pirates would be agressive enough, they would actually take the planets back If you don't watch out!
What you guys think about that?
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Necrotic
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 19, 2002
Posts: 378
| Posted: 2011-05-25 00:11
the map idea looks good. it would be nice to see in the mv and would encourage more map shifting
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-05-25 00:45
Oh, meh...
I just posted some ideas on Sag On Ice.
Seems that we're in agreement of a buffer system between Kluth and ICC. And also delinking either the buffer or home system from Luyten.
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2011-05-25 04:36
We don't need new maps...Old is Gold...just need some variety in the place where battle takes place. Refer to Doran's morality lecture in 'sag on ice'.
Quote:
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On 2011-05-24 21:08, Tellaris wrote:
AI suggestions
-AI bought with credits lifetime increased to 2 hours -They aren't bad investments. Just spawn them with efficient timing, and with a bit of luck you'll get good returns. Also they are suicidal because you refuse to take some time off and order them to retreat. You are the leader of a fleet, you are expected to do some Command&Control stuff.
-AI Pirate count in MV greatly increased -Agreed.
-Pirate and MI counts dynamically adjusted based on server load -Agreed, we need something to threaten us if there are no players to.
-AI spawning from shipyards preferentially instead of Gates (But does not cost resources) -No real need for this, as ai always will jump to the enemy regardless of where they spawn from.
-Ability to devote excess shipyard resources to increasing AI count (slightly) -Faction ai are dynamically balanced based on number of players online. This would end up messing with the all-important mechanism of ship count balancing.
-Chance for AI bought with credits to spawn an Elite variant of that hull size -Would only be fair if a risk was introduced to balance the reward then, say 10% chance of spawn failure. Also, elite ships are limited to the home servers so that elite-farming cannot happen.
-AI Transport count limited to 1 per 2 planets -A better idea would be that only shipyard planets can spawn ai transports. That way, the starport system would focus on filling up resources on shipyard planets first. Codes may be needed to enable trannies of one planet to do trade between 2 other planets.
What do you think about AI? -They are good meatshields, diversionary forces and trackers. They also give a much needed damage multiplier against larger enemy forces. Ask Entil-Zha the Starkiller 
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2011-05-25 05:20
I looked at a layout like this a while back, but part of the reason it didn't happen was size - it added too many new planets and systems. So while I see that you suggest a ~7 planet limit for the side systems (Luyten, R33, New), we have to be wary of having too much overall. I don't have a current count of planet numbers, but it would have to be no larger than it is now in overall planet count.
Also complicating matters is that R33 is not going to be edited to any meaningful extent - the only thing we'll do is move gates in the system or fix glitches; due to the history of the system, the general layout and planet names aren't going to change. Which means that you're stuck with more like 15 objects. Not sure how this fits into your system.
But like you and Kenny, I'm inclined to think that symmetry is beneficial, if visually boring.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-05-25 10:13
Is the planet limit due to server load? Epsilon Ind and Procyon are my favorite systems and just so happen to be in useless servers.
Luyten on the other hand (and Kaus Borealis) I do not like.
(part of the reason they're my favorite is due to the old resource system, where you had to control key planets in those large systems to maintain a supply of hypermatter, dark matter, urdanium etc. Oh how I miss that resource system...)
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Marius Falix
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 05, 2010
Posts: 268
From: Luyten
| Posted: 2011-05-25 10:45
Quote:
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On 2011-05-25 10:13, General Zod wrote:
Is the planet limit due to server load? Epsilon Ind and Procyon are my favorite systems and just so happen to be in useless servers.
Luyten on the other hand (and Kaus Borealis) I do not like.
(part of the reason they're my favorite is due to the old resource system, where you had to control key planets in those large systems to maintain a supply of hypermatter, dark matter, urdanium etc. Oh how I miss that resource system...)
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Not useless, they play the parts every so often someone gets pushed out of sag.
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Tellaris
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: April 30, 2002
Posts: 830
From: Land of Chocolate
| Posted: 2011-05-25 11:29
I am aware of the history of R33, and if Cinncinati can be reduced to 7, it would be great to switch the two (R33 becomes UGTO home, tbh I think thats perferable BECAUSE of the history. Only reason I didn't do so in this was because I was attempting to keep some elements of the current design.) Of course, Cinn could also be used to replace Epsilon Ind for the MI, and a 2nd new side system created as well.
Everyone agrees that the Luyten system is TERRIBLE for balance, its fighting over the exact same 3 planets, but that is also due to gate placement. My beef with Luyten is its simply too small to sport much variety in combat in the first place. In a larger system like Eps Ind, we may very well see a case where each faction owns one "mini system" of planets and fights over the other stuff in the system. Or one faction will control the system, but with gates that spread out, holding multiple clusters becomes challenging unless you have distinct numerical superiority. As far as alliances go, ICC and luthies would have to attack simultaneously, and UGTO would be screwed for holding that large system. Any other faction would get the exact same treatment. Luyten is easy to hold because of so many close planets in cluster, and its tiny size. This is why I propose that it no longer remain the "middle" system.
Since defence bases where refactored, I thought the planet object count was less of an issue now as well. Perhaps looking at that may be warrented, since the object count was low due to how the old bases worked.
---Added to post up above for those that missed it, otherwise skip if you're reading through first time----
Current ----------------------- New (proposed)
System - PlanetNum(star)-- System - PlanetNum(Star)
R33 ------------- 14(1) ------- R33 ------------- 7(1)
Cinncinati ------ 13(1) ------- Cinncinati ----- 13(1)
Kaus Borealis - 4(1) --------- Kaus Borealis - 4(1)
Epsilon Eri ----- 18(1) ------- Epsilon Eri ----- 18(1)
Luyten --------- 12(2) ------- New System -- 7(1)
Tau Ceti ------- 16(2)-------- Epsilon Ind ---- 39(1)
--------------------------------- Tau Ceti ------- 16(2)
--------------------------------- Luyten --------- 7(2)
Total:---------- 77(85) ------ Total:----------- 111(121)
Possible changes (added)
-R33 and Cinncinati switched
-Faction Home System planet count set to 15
-Central system planet count set to 30
[ This Message was edited by: Tellaris on 2011-05-25 12:09 ]
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Rebellion
Marshal
Faster than Light
Joined: June 20, 2009
Posts: 730
From: sol
| Posted: 2011-05-25 21:01
I like cin......just saying
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Tellaris
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: April 30, 2002
Posts: 830
From: Land of Chocolate
| Posted: 2011-05-26 20:13
I'd like to point out, for the symmetry issue, the current map looks like a pentagon. It is geometric, just its stretched to not be symmetrical. The same thing can be done for a map like this. Star positions can easily be adjusted so some are closer to others. You do have to be careful with this, however, because some factions become disadvantaged due to the fact they have to jump further to skip gate blockades.
Also, in keeping with the theme of the above idea, and with the MV in general, here is Gliese 581!
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgI0CduUN0L-dHhkY1FXU09GTlFWWlI5OExXUl9aVXc&hl=en_US&authkey=CJO_3Go
[ This Message was edited by: Tellaris on 2011-05-26 20:30 ]
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µOmniVore
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 13, 2006
Posts: 171
| Posted: 2011-05-27 12:10
Your idea is sound i love how you balanced the MV, but what you are forgetting is that luyten also is a buffer that allows the ugto to currently hold 3 out of the 6 systems in the MV. I would suggest one central gate system that all systems link to while each faction and ai factions get their own rest base.
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[ This Message was edited by: µOmniVore on 2011-05-27 12:26 ]
the central gate system can have 3 primary stars and a random number of planets to fight over. this gate system can't have any direct jumps to any other gate Each gate must require atleast 2 jumps to get to so it prevents gate camping and such. the home transfer gates can either be in the gate system or in each faction system. having each system connected to its neighboring system is silly and makes the game dull (IMO) but a central system to fight over would help create a true front line where all ships can meet to have combat with the occasional invasion of dedicated systems.
(i also would love the large MV back makes no sense for 65% of the MV to be unused) why now make home systems their own servers and give the rest of the planets to the combat MV would make more sense. having such a small combat area ruins the game imo.
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