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Latest beta update.... |
Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
|  Posted: 2010-11-20 16:57
I disgree with this update.
NO. I am not whining about not getting pres so fast. Im admiral and happy with what i have.
What i am saying is, the path being chosen with this update is like a quick fix. A easy and fast way.
its like this.
Oil is leaking from a little bolt in your car's engine's sump.
Easy fix? new bolt.
Propper fix? Gasket replacement, re-line thread with plumbing tape.
You get the picture?
The problem here is that smaller ships arent attractive to fly. If people actualy had a desire to fly them, then pres gain would not matter. Why?
Because people wouldnt have a bigger = better attitude.
In virtually any situation, (For example) A Battle dred is a capable ship.
Thats all well and good, but can the same thing be said for a Gunboat destroyer? No. It cant even scratch a station.
Thus here I have a key statement - Bigger ships are more capable in a wider variety of situations.
In my opinion, it should be: All ships are reasonably capable in a wide variety of situations.
Im guessing that some people are going to say that small ships are capable in a wide variety of situations when other small ships are around. here i present a question.
Would a high-ranking player actualy pull a small ship over a dred? unlikely. therefore small ships are not capable in a wide variety of situations under the normal combat conditions in this game.
I seriously hope the devs consider this lengthy block of text when they continue those ship layout updates.
Also, thankyou if you have read through this huge wad of text. Its appreciated.
Thankyou.
[ This Message was edited by: lulzypulzy*STEAK!!* on 2010-11-20 16:58 ]
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2010-11-20 17:22
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On 2010-11-20 16:57, lulzypulzy*STEAK!!* wrote:
Would a high-ranking player actualy pull a small ship over a dred? unlikely. therefore small ships are not capable in a wide variety of situations under the normal combat conditions in this game.
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You know, in OUR world, even a small aircraft collide into a much bigger aircraft still may jeopardise severely the huge aircraft. Or a sole grenade detonades inside the ship engine can destroy entire ship.
But this is DS. Something like that will not happen.
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2010-11-20 18:04
It has happened. We had destroyers able to take down dreads in the past, and people whined then... because they "worked so hard for the dread, only to have it killed by a smaller ship." What's the value in having large ships then, in gaining prestige, and in ranking up? According to the complaints at the time, it was a terrible way to design a game... so we made each class better than the one preceding it. Seems logical enough... except apparently not.
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jamesbob
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 22, 2009
Posts: 410
| Posted: 2010-11-20 18:05
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On 2010-11-20 16:57, lulzypulzy*STEAK!!* wrote:
I disgree with this update.
NO. I am not whining about not getting pres so fast. Im admiral and happy with what i have.
What i am saying is, the path being chosen with this update is like a quick fix. A easy and fast way.
its like this.
Oil is leaking from a little bolt in your car's engine's sump.
Easy fix? new bolt.
Propper fix? Gasket replacement, re-line thread with plumbing tape.
You get the picture?
The problem here is that smaller ships arent attractive to fly. If people actualy had a desire to fly them, then pres gain would not matter. Why?
Because people wouldnt have a bigger = better attitude.
In virtually any situation, (For example) A Battle dred is a capable ship.
Thats all well and good, but can the same thing be said for a Gunboat destroyer? No. It cant even scratch a station.
Thus here I have a key statement - Bigger ships are more capable in a wider variety of situations.
In my opinion, it should be: All ships are reasonably capable in a wide variety of situations.
Im guessing that some people are going to say that small ships are capable in a wide variety of situations when other small ships are around. here i present a question.
Would a high-ranking player actualy pull a small ship over a dred? unlikely. therefore small ships are not capable in a wide variety of situations under the normal combat conditions in this game.
I seriously hope the devs consider this lengthy block of text when they continue those ship layout updates.
Also, thankyou if you have read through this huge wad of text. Its appreciated.
Thankyou.
[ This Message was edited by: lulzypulzy*STEAK!!* on 2010-11-20 16:58 ]
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why yes i agree with this let me give you a peice of advice.
ever seen a ugto qq because they just lost their precious torp cruiser to a admiral in a icc assault frigate.
i have want to know why i was the one that did it.
and for the record a gunboat destroyer is not a very good ship period.
how ever a combat destroyer can scratch a station if the station is stock and so is the destroyer.
a cruiser can scratch a station (mind you the station does not take to kindly to being shot at) if said station is ugto they will more then likely blindly jump you and you will more then likely jump to maxmium weapons range.
out of range of the beams and far enough to dodge qst.
then their is a 60 percent chance said ugto station will qq  and ask for a nerfing.
want to know how i know this  i use to be one (never qq tho)
they say the combat dread is a peice of cow terd.
i disagree you got to keep your distance BUT then you get people say thats is impossible.
my reply well not everyone can fly like i can
what i have just shown is that used correctly small ships can kill bigger ships the luth prove that every day .
and if i hear but luth are op i am going to scream because no they are not op. most of the people THAT CAN FLY ARE OVER THERE.
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Zero28
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 25, 2006
Posts: 591
| Posted: 2010-11-20 18:27
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On 2010-11-20 18:04, Shigernafy wrote:
It has happened. We had destroyers able to take down dreads in the past, and people whined then... because they "worked so hard for the dread, only to have it killed by a smaller ship." What's the value in having large ships then, in gaining prestige, and in ranking up? According to the complaints at the time, it was a terrible way to design a game... so we made each class better than the one preceding it. Seems logical enough... except apparently not.
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Cept back then, 1 dessy coudl own all, like the ICC escort destroyer, i think maybe more specialised class could help, like in UGTO woudl have close range long range, and stardart combat, but also add in a hard hitter with powerful guns for anti dreads, but weaposn too slow to hit anything smaller, thus weak vs ships of his class and lower
its all things hard to balance, nothign is pefect 
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Borgie
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 2256
From: close by
| Posted: 2010-11-20 18:28
one dessie to rule them all.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2010-11-20 18:42
Problem : progression too easy.
Cause: new ships damaged for armour/shield damage.
Fix: reduce gain that induces fast progression.
You're on about an entirely different and self-opinionated issue, and you're welcome to have that. But this change is to solve an entirely different problem.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash on 2010-11-20 18:48 ]
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2010-11-20 19:20
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On 2010-11-20 18:04, Shigernafy wrote:
It has happened. We had destroyers able to take down dreads in the past, and people whined then... because they "worked so hard for the dread, only to have it killed by a smaller ship." What's the value in having large ships then, in gaining prestige, and in ranking up? According to the complaints at the time, it was a terrible way to design a game... so we made each class better than the one preceding it. Seems logical enough... except apparently not.
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I hate to tell you, but thats not a problem with the game - thats idiotic players.
What im trying to get at here is that a destroyer has absolutely no fight against a dred. im not saying t should be able to own a dred. im saying it should be able to hold its own somewhat.
Still. in my opinion there should be no reason to get a big ship unless there is a good reason for it. same with ANY ship.
More ships should allow the player to participate in a wider range of scenarios. However players shouldnt be significantly.... penalized for not being able to fly big ships.
As stated in another topic, this game is a Baby Eater. what can a frigate that a new player is piloting do against, say, a cruiser? or a dred? or even a destroyer?
[ This Message was edited by: lulzypulzy*STEAK!!* on 2010-11-20 19:24 ]
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jamesbob
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 22, 2009
Posts: 410
| Posted: 2010-11-20 19:58
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On 2010-11-20 19:20, lulzypulzy*STEAK!!* wrote:
Quote:
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On 2010-11-20 18:04, Shigernafy wrote:
It has happened. We had destroyers able to take down dreads in the past, and people whined then... because they "worked so hard for the dread, only to have it killed by a smaller ship." What's the value in having large ships then, in gaining prestige, and in ranking up? According to the complaints at the time, it was a terrible way to design a game... so we made each class better than the one preceding it. Seems logical enough... except apparently not.
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I hate to tell you, but thats not a problem with the game - thats idiotic players.
What im trying to get at here is that a destroyer has absolutely no fight against a dred. im not saying t should be able to own a dred. im saying it should be able to hold its own somewhat.
Still. in my opinion there should be no reason to get a big ship unless there is a good reason for it. same with ANY ship.
More ships should allow the player to participate in a wider range of scenarios. However players shouldnt be significantly.... penalized for not being able to fly big ships.
As stated in another topic, this game is a Baby Eater. what can a frigate that a new player is piloting do against, say, a cruiser? or a dred? or even a destroyer?
[ This Message was edited by: lulzypulzy*STEAK!!* on 2010-11-20 19:24 ]
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HELLO CAN ANYONE HEAR ME
a frigate can do quite a bit.
a frigate in dread vs dread battles can slip in get behind a dread and pound it for some easy presentige a newbie can do this.
now then take into calulating the silly dread that is now clearly cranky turns to wipe away this little pain.
you zip out he has turned OH NO HE HAS nothing protecting his precious hull in the rear OR BUCK ALL.
other dread will more then likely see this and mash the space bar sending that first dread either to hell or running home for mummy (depot planet)
a frigate can do quite a bit it can peeve off any big ship.
so can a destroyer and a cruiser and they can damage a station and do a lot more then scratch it if its a stock.
your augument is flawed. oh and a destroyer can not do much against a battleship or a aircraft in real life.
unfortunately if they based more of this game on real life that poor little destroyer would be suffering fighter crafts armed with TORPEDOS rupturing its poor little hull with tiny MISSLES.
am i getting the point through to you a dread is supose to be about to wipe out a destroyer with several alphas as one could in real life except in real life a dread could OBLERIATE A DESTROYER WITH 1 SHOT.
however a destroyer is SUPOSE TO be faster then a dread as such it could dodge said SALVO.
if you want destroyers to be worth what you want them to be your going to have to ask the devs to start applying more real life.
so if thats what you want IN SPACE all motion is relitive so is accleration so if your DESSY is hit by a projectile thats traveled 10000 km and is accleration at a speed of 200km per second and left the barrel at 200 kmps
it will add 200kmps to the actuall speed now the kenetic damage from that would rip you apart no matter how good your shields are because after 10000km has been traveled it would be traveling at a speed of let me do the maths 2000000 kmps of kenetic energy nothing could stop that unless your shields could with stand a excess of that much kenetic energy that would deplete nearly all your power (for a destroyer) and you would still have excess energy and the projectile would rip right through your shields or your armor and turn you into tiny peices.
now onto the destroyer. A DESTROYER IS NOT THE SAME SIZE AS A DREAD
as such their are limitations on how big ITS GUNS CAN BE.
SAME WITH A CRUISER.
yet sill frigate destroyers and cruisers are VERY USEFUL.
STOP YOUR QQING AND START USING YOUR BRAIN (your the one talking about idiotic players start looking at your self)
*if any mod are not happy with my use of language these people just want to post to be a pain and i am sending a message*
*also everything i said has the advantage of being true expecially about the frigate the destroyer and the cruiser (my maths might be off but it still translate to the same message) *
[ This Message was edited by: jamesbob on 2010-11-20 20:02 ]
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-11-20 20:05
Small ships go where big ships cannot, and big ships do what small ships cannot. If this game had more strategists and less trigger happy "I DO WHAT I WANT, THAT ACTION HAS A CHANCE OF ME LOSING 200 PRES SO IMA NOT TRY IT!!!!", there would be multiple attacks, such as a diversion at cluster A and the real attack on cluster B. Here, small ships could move between the two fights more easily than larger ships. Unfortunately, this game lacks strategy, strategic players, and planets are worthless so the above situation will never happen.
Also, dessies are good for when your team decides to camp and do absolutely nothing, fun and rewarding to pester enemies with a dessie. Again, people would rather camp and gain nothing rather than do surgical strikes with dessies.
A dessie can also hit missle ships entrenched near full def planets, but again players will...
You can't use small ships like big ships, point jump, and smash that space bar. You would drive an 18 wheeler differently than that sub-compact. This applies to ships too, except now you also have to drive differently AND think differently
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Scorched Soul[+R]
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: November 14, 2005
Posts: 378
From: USA, NJ, Princeton
| Posted: 2010-11-20 20:12
from a technical standpoint a destroyer can definatly kill a dread the problem lies in that long before your destroyer starts to rachet down that dreads hull one of 2 things will happen in a normal situation.
1. the dread plot a coordinat very far away and will be gone
OR
2. the dread with soak up damage come to a full stop jump you at 60 gu alpha you and you will be limping away
in the mean time it is definatly possible to deal damage, stay out of beam range and dodge core weaps. you can definatly use a destroyer against a dread and be a major pain in the neck you just wont be as deadly as a Siphon at 150gu turning your ship into a molten hellstorm.
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jamesbob
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 22, 2009
Posts: 410
| Posted: 2010-11-20 20:21
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On 2010-11-20 20:12, Scorched Soul[+R] wrote:
from a technical standpoint a destroyer can definatly kill a dread the problem lies in that long before your destroyer starts to rachet down that dreads hull one of 2 things will happen in a normal situation.
1. the dread plot a coordinat very far away and will be gone
OR
2. the dread with soak up damage come to a full stop jump you at 60 gu alpha you and you will be limping away
in the mean time it is definatly possible to deal damage, stay out of beam range and dodge core weaps. you can definatly use a destroyer against a dread and be a major pain in the neck you just wont be as deadly as a Siphon at 150gu turning your ship into a molten hellstorm.
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very well described me i just lost all patience with the guy that started this thread
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2010-11-20 22:36
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On 2010-11-20 16:57, lulzypulzy*STEAK!!* wrote:
The problem here is that smaller ships arent attractive to fly. If people actualy had a desire to fly them, then pres gain would not matter. Why?
Thus here I have a key statement - Bigger ships are more capable in a wider variety of situations.
In my opinion, it should be: All ships are reasonably capable in a wide variety of situations.
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May I suggest a trade?
Take away some of the max speed of dreads (say, down to 12 or 10 gu/s), increase jumpdrive recharge time (by 15-30 seconds). Oh, and also take away weapon damage levelling.
This means a dread cannot dogfight or chase smaller ships as good as now, and they will get stuck at a place for nearly 1:30 minutes; also they won't do epic proportions of damage anymore, effectively making them a Mobile Weapons Platform which can drive ships away.
In return, give +1 to the hull level of all dreads (so dreads have hull level of 7, and superdreads have 8 ), and give weapon projectile size levelling.
This makes dreads have more armor, hull strength and device effectiveness; and also gives dreadnoughts the capability to nab down smaller ships, effectively increasing their strength as a defense ship.
Fair, isn't it?
[ This Message was edited by: Grand Cannon Boomshot on 2010-11-21 03:21 ]
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Panduh
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: June 03, 2007
Posts: 250
| Posted: 2010-11-20 22:42
I hate to take a public stance on anything, but, to my heartfelt sorrow, I often find myself supporting the developers when they choose to disregard a player's opinion.
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furtim
Admiral
Joined: June 06, 2005
Posts: 27
| Posted: 2010-11-21 00:55
Oh, so THERE's the legendary person saying that dessies should be able to solo dreads. I stand corrected, they do exist.
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