| Author |
lil [suggestion] about mines |
Marius Falix
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 05, 2010
Posts: 268
From: Luyten
|  Posted: 2010-09-08 17:56
quick and easy (thank god for no innuendos huh)
make mines have drag towards ships within say <200 gu
make em more effective than being ran into.
just say they are magnetic or something.
but im not sure whats devs want to do with mines so im just putting it out there.
the distance is up to change naturally
[ This Message was edited by: Marius Falix on 2010-09-08 18:00 ]
also better ECM cover for em. not really usefull if one ECCM gets em detonated with pulse/PD instantly
[ This Message was edited by: Marius Falix on 2010-09-08 18:01 ]
[TK]Bardiche @136587 sent to Friends: "Space is too big and mines too small to have a good chance of actually HITTING people."
[-GTN-]Gejaheline @112309 sent to Friends: "I think when you get within 100gu they pretty much detonate anyway, if memory serves"
* [TK]Bardiche @136587 sent to Friends: "You LITERALLY need some idiot to BLUNDER into an ICC/UGTO minefield to receive a minor degree of damage."
* [TK]Bardiche @136587 sent to Friends: "And UGTO mines are only effective when the enemy's hulled. Protip: That's almost never practical!"
* [-GTN-]Gejaheline @112309 sent to Friends: "Also, Bard's pretty much right. In reality, mines would be hideously impractical, as well as UGTO mines totally sucking"
[ This Message was edited by: Marius Falix on 2010-09-08 18:06 ]
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-09-08 18:09
The only thing mines are good for currently are laying in the spot people appear from when they go through a gate. Aside from AM mines, but that's something else entirely because luth minelayers can cloak and don't get immediately attacked before even getting into position to drop during combat.
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Delando
Marshal
Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 260
| Posted: 2010-09-08 19:17
I love mining in scarabs. very good at killing pesky scouts and suppies. can be effective against dreads and crusers, if ur have multiple ships all runing mines. and learn to remote detonate em.
We did have a "Homing" type of mine way back in 1.48
once launched, they float at slow speed in the direction ur ship was moving.
but they weren't particually more effective than the standard. and their dmg was nerfed to balance em.
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2010-09-09 05:20
In reference to my "in reality" comment:
Basically, it's predicted that in a real space-war most kinds of omnidirectional blast weapon would be useless, because the power drops off with the square of the distance. Thermonuclear weapons would have an effective lethal radius of less than a kilometre from the centre of the blast. This might seem like a long way, but "knife fight range" is up to one hundred thousand kilometres, depending on how big one's laser is and how much thrust the enemy ship has.
Missiles have somewhat less of an issue here since they basically can't miss unless the enemy deploys countermeasures, although anything that lets them detonate from further away helps them to survive enemy point-defence for long enough to get into lethal range.
Mines, however, wouldn't be too useful, since they could be picked off from a very long way away.
The solution to this is to make the warheads directional, focusing the energy of the blast into a smaller angle and thus making it more powerful in one direction.
Essentially, there are two ways of doing this, and I'll spare the details on how it's done. You can either use a shaped thermonuclear charge (yes, these do exist) to focus the blast into a narrow jet, effectively turning it into a powerful, one-shot particle cannon, or you can build a device called a bomb-pumped laser, typically a gamma-ray laser, which uses the energy from the thermonuclear warhead to power an exceptionally powerful one-shot laser. Both of these options are powerful and long-ranged, although the laser would have a far greater effective range at the cost of some power.
These techniques greatly enhance the lethal radius of a warhead, but they will typically strike only one target (which they need to aim at, but that's a more trivial issue). Striking only one target isn't much of a downside since a 1km blast radius in space will probably only hit one enemy ship anyway (the one it was aiming at).
Thus, rather than scatter a field of conventional mines in orbit around your desired strongpoint, waiting for the enemy to blunder through them, you'd scatter a cloud of what are effectively one-shot particle cannons and lasers that would lie in wait until an enemy ship got into range before aiming and detonating, probably en masse or in quick succession to make sure the enemy can't evade.
Since they're unmanned, need little power, and won't be expected to return to base, you could probably afford to build a lot of these since they're basically bombs with sensors.
Well, enough talking about "real-world" stuff. Back to DS.
I can see two obvious changes that would make mines more practical in various situations: Mines could either be hunter-killers, drifting towards nearby targets, or they could become one-shot ranged weapons, exploding and firing something suitably powerful (probably weaker than current mine explosions now in order to compensate for the ability to have an entire minefield detonate at the enemy, but more powerful than, say, a pcannon since it only fires once) at enemy ships once they get in range. Since mines detonate when you get close to them, I'm guessing there's some sort of proximity fuse code that could be suitably adapted for either task. If not, hopefully the fighter AI improvements will include an "attack enemy in range" routine that can be adapted for mine use.
Another interesting idea that could be combined with the above would be the ability to "lob" mines at a slow speed, like bombs, which would let them be used against static targets to restrict enemy movement or they could be flung out ahead of a force for enemy ships to run into when they try to engage. When the mines get close to an enemy, they change course/detonate.
Also, it would be nice if there were some decent minelaying ships; the fact that I think only the K'luth have a minelaying ship above frigate size probably discourages other factions from trying to use them. UGTO have only a scout and a frigate that can lay mines.
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2010-09-09 05:47
Quote:
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Thus, rather than scatter a field of conventional mines in orbit around your desired strongpoint, waiting for the enemy to blunder through them, you'd scatter a cloud of what are effectively one-shot particle cannons and lasers that would lie in wait until an enemy ship got into range before aiming and detonating, probably en masse or in quick succession to make sure the enemy can't evade.
Since they're unmanned, need little power, and won't be expected to return to base, you could probably afford to build a lot of these since they're basically bombs with sensors. |
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isnt that, what luths are for ? 
mine-layers drop a "field" that do damage to ships within
http://www.darkspace.net/index.htm?module=forums.php&page=/viewtopic.php?topic=49254&forum=36&22
[ This Message was edited by: NoBoDx on 2010-09-09 06:25 ]
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Okkam
Marshal
Joined: February 06, 2008
Posts: 157
From: Dorset
| Posted: 2010-09-09 06:48
In reply to the thought that mines could be used a strategical bombs that move slowly towards the target reminded me of a few things from other games, both online, offline and board game.
What you described basically is current torpedoes but torpedoes that aren't glowing with energy. Small, dumb, slow moving, one direction with a large explosion radius or a huge warhead with a low explosion radius. Unguided torpedoes that are used in games that basically aren't designed to destroy the enemy as much as punish them if they go a direction that they shouldn't have. You launch your torpedoes in a direction or two to funnel the hostiles or split them up, use your imagination. They should have a long long range but have to be aimed manually. With that you'd also have to factor in the current situation with point defence which would render that torpedo idea redundant in the face of anything ICC. (Games such as Battlefleet gothic, some sins of a solar empire mods and Total Annihilation)
Mines that home could be a good idea however i'd like to point you to the various other games (frantically tries to think of one) that have homing mines and to the snowball effect of the follow command/script on dumb warheads. If the target is moving fast enough then all the mines will do is lock onto the target and follow that target til they end up in a giant ball behind it. It would basically be the movie Speed but in space because if you slow down/stop moving then you die from the sheer fact that in all reality you've just absorbed the entire minefield to hit on a single quadrent of your ship's armour/shields/hull.
The other issue I have found with it would be that most scripts/coding towards homing mines tends to make the mines move faster is the enemy is moving faster so you'll grab the attention of the mines and then if you try and run it'll smack you upside your face, although if you don't run then the mines slowly come towards you and you might be able to pick them off. Blag it as some sort of enhanced energy signature for making a ship's engines go all ahead full.
The idea about using a single shot bombard mine is a great idea until you realise that the k'luth can have a scarab and the human races have a destroyer or frigate. Even with the mine limitation in place so you can only do a few volleys the amount of mines the K'luth could drop in comparison is huge. Not to mension having 2-3 scarabs dropping bombard mines.
Not to condemn K'luth, human races could become overpowered too but it would require more manpower. Having it in any large number would be an issue.
The average human destroyer gets 2 volleys of its 3 mine bays? So thats 12 mines or somthing. 12 single shot Pcannons with higher strength than pcannons that can be fired aslong as the person has ammo. If it was introduced then mine ships would have to be redesigned to accomodate.
In short, I am in full agreement that mines at the moment are fairly useless unless you want to camp a gate with them due to the explosion radius being somewhat small in the grand scheme of things. I just want to add one last thing and that is if you plan on changing mines then please keep in mind the human races and how rejected they are when they come to mines and minelayers. The human races only have a measley destroyer that can only drop a couple of loads where the Luth has the scarab which, while limited still, drops more.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2010-09-09 12:30
From its definition, mine can't fly like bomb, if so, it's called "grenade".
I like the old homing mines (as state in Database), dunno why it is deleted from game.
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2010-09-09 17:54
Quote:
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On 2010-09-09 06:48, Okkam's Razor wrote:
In reply to the thought that mines could be used a strategical bombs that move slowly towards the target reminded me of a few things from other games, both online, offline and board game.
What you described basically is current torpedoes but torpedoes that aren't glowing with energy. Small, dumb, slow moving, one direction with a large explosion radius or a huge warhead with a low explosion radius. Unguided torpedoes that are used in games that basically aren't designed to destroy the enemy as much as punish them if they go a direction that they shouldn't have. You launch your torpedoes in a direction or two to funnel the hostiles or split them up, use your imagination. They should have a long long range but have to be aimed manually. With that you'd also have to factor in the current situation with point defence which would render that torpedo idea redundant in the face of anything ICC. (Games such as Battlefleet gothic, some sins of a solar empire mods and Total Annihilation)
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In accordance with current traditions in the field of future space combat, there are basically three classes of self-propelled munition, separated by how much thrust they have:
Missiles: Missiles have a vastly larger thrust than ships, meaning that they can hit them quite easily.
Torpedoes: Torpedoes have about as much thrust as a warship, meaning that they usually carry more payload but are harder to hit a target with.
Mines: Mines have little or no thrust (or merely have some kind of station-keeping system like a solar sail), lying in wait or being deployed in front of an enemy ship.
Aside from that, they're basically all the same; they have sensors, aiming thrusters, and a directional warhead.
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Mines that home could be a good idea however i'd like to point you to the various other games (frantically tries to think of one) that have homing mines and to the snowball effect of the follow command/script on dumb warheads. If the target is moving fast enough then all the mines will do is lock onto the target and follow that target til they end up in a giant ball behind it. It would basically be the movie Speed but in space because if you slow down/stop moving then you die from the sheer fact that in all reality you've just absorbed the entire minefield to hit on a single quadrent of your ship's armour/shields/hull.
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Presumably mines would attempt to lead the target, and would give up if the enemy got too far away.
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The other issue I have found with it would be that most scripts/coding towards homing mines tends to make the mines move faster is the enemy is moving faster so you'll grab the attention of the mines and then if you try and run it'll smack you upside your face, although if you don't run then the mines slowly come towards you and you might be able to pick them off. Blag it as some sort of enhanced energy signature for making a ship's engines go all ahead full.
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There's nothing that says that mines must move faster if the enemy is moving faster; it's entirely a choice of the game designer.
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The idea about using a single shot bombard mine is a great idea until you realise that the k'luth can have a scarab and the human races have a destroyer or frigate. Even with the mine limitation in place so you can only do a few volleys the amount of mines the K'luth could drop in comparison is huge. Not to mension having 2-3 scarabs dropping bombard mines.
Not to condemn K'luth, human races could become overpowered too but it would require more manpower. Having it in any large number would be an issue.
The average human destroyer gets 2 volleys of its 3 mine bays? So thats 12 mines or somthing. 12 single shot Pcannons with higher strength than pcannons that can be fired aslong as the person has ammo. If it was introduced then mine ships would have to be redesigned to accomodate.
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This is why I suggested that human ships get their minelayers looked at, naturally.
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Challenger
Marshal
Joined: March 28, 2002
Posts: 886
| Posted: 2010-09-09 18:09
I swear she sounds more and more like Demorian every day.
If it counts for anything I like the idea of mines being "magnetic" nothing wrong with a 100-200 gu radius for their effective range. With all of the technology out there with ICC, K'luth, UGTO, MI there should be no reason why you could not fit simple magnetic mines into the story line.
I would not increase or decrease damage till we see how the magnetic thing pans out.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-09-09 18:29
on torpedoes:
itd be nice if torpedoe ships (AC, TC, that one on kluth, and the respective dreads) had a special device: torpedoe spread.
when activied, all of the ships torpedoes "fire" in a wide spread along the 2d plane of the game, but each individual torpedoe gets a damage modifier due to the more randomized chance of it hitting at range. essentially youd be able to use it as a much more effective blindfire device against kluth, or to do some serious damage to someone trying to attack anyone at close range (a full broadside of torpedoes with extra damage would hurt i suspet)
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-09-09 21:18
Quote:
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On 2010-09-09 18:29, Lark (Retired) wrote:
on torpedoes:
itd be nice if torpedoe ships (AC, TC, that one on kluth, and the respective dreads) had a special device: torpedoe spread.
when activied, all of the ships torpedoes "fire" in a wide spread along the 2d plane of the game, but each individual torpedoe gets a damage modifier due to the more randomized chance of it hitting at range. essentially youd be able to use it as a much more effective blindfire device against kluth, or to do some serious damage to someone trying to attack anyone at close range (a full broadside of torpedoes with extra damage would hurt i suspet)
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it takes longer and requires calculations, but if u manually target very close to you you can spread the torpedos, problem is the can and will fly upward/downward
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-09-10 00:57
Quote:
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On 2010-09-09 18:09, Challenger wrote:
I swear she sounds more and more like Demorian every day.
If it counts for anything I like the idea of mines being "magnetic" nothing wrong with a 100-200 gu radius for their effective range. With all of the technology out there with ICC, K'luth, UGTO, MI there should be no reason why you could not fit simple magnetic mines into the story line.
I would not increase or decrease damage till we see how the magnetic thing pans out.
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That's a cool idea. 
But I hope that the sigs of mines will still be assisted or affected by ECM/ECCM.
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2010-09-10 04:23
Quote:
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On 2010-09-09 18:09, Challenger wrote:
I swear she sounds more and more like Demorian every day.
If it counts for anything I like the idea of mines being "magnetic" nothing wrong with a 100-200 gu radius for their effective range. With all of the technology out there with ICC, K'luth, UGTO, MI there should be no reason why you could not fit simple magnetic mines into the story line.
I would not increase or decrease damage till we see how the magnetic thing pans out.
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if you stick to "normal" mines (i sugested aoe-fields and someone wanted minefields):
each mine should have a level+x gu radius where they target enemy ships and fly at (0,level)+x gu toward their taget (scout mines fly faster but have a smaler target range than bigger ship ones)
if the target get lost (leave target range) they simply stop and wait for their next prey
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2010-09-10 08:10
Quote:
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On 2010-09-09 18:09, Challenger wrote:
I swear she sounds more and more like Demorian every day.
If it counts for anything I like the idea of mines being "magnetic" nothing wrong with a 100-200 gu radius for their effective range. With all of the technology out there with ICC, K'luth, UGTO, MI there should be no reason why you could not fit simple magnetic mines into the story line.
I would not increase or decrease damage till we see how the magnetic thing pans out.
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Unless it's decided that we suddenly want to replace all weapon warheads with directed energy warheads, I'm suspecting that the homing abiltiy thing would be more likely to happen.
I know it's pure semantics, but engines would probably be more practical than making them magnetic. Same in-game effect, though. Keeping the range fairly modest would stop the entire minefield from homing in on a single ship, which would be undesirable from the point of view of the monelayer since they'll want some mines left to hit other ships.
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Marius Falix
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 05, 2010
Posts: 268
From: Luyten
| Posted: 2010-09-11 04:42
we could allways bring in a drone aspect. like for engi ships/command ships etc.
small drones that orbit the ship and fire semi powerfull lasers.
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