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2:1 Balance... needs to be balanced. |
Coeus
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: March 22, 2006
Posts: 2815
From: Philly
|  Posted: 2008-07-17 21:42
Ok, so we've all read the threads and seen the breakdowns... basically Faust & the devs want everything to be scaling, a station should be a match for two dreads & vice verca and two cruisers should be a match for a station. Looks great on paper. We all read that post about the factors of numbers in a battle...
Well, the problem right now is that the numbers simply don't add up.
The following tests too place tonight. We all used the most advanced combat ships possible for this test. I flew the larger ship, while YIIMM and doda flew the smaller ships.
Test #1
Line Station vs Mandible and Battle Dreadnought.
This battle should be re-tested on same-team ships & uninturrupted... but the outcome was pretty clear... the Mandy was as good as dead... as soon as it came in for a close strike the CL2Ks ripped into it, any time it decloaked it ate a face-full of Ions and walked away worse for wear. The BD didn't get much attention before the server restarted, but based on my condition at the time in the LS and the battle I fought last night against Enterprise in a similar situation (Damaged LS vs fresh BD) both dreads would have lost.
Final Result: Station is superior, not in a drastic sense of "OMG STATION WE'RE DOOMED!" but it breaks the 2:1 mold - possibly 2.5:1 or even 3:1 to bring down a LS.
Test #2
Assault Dreadnought vs Two Torpedo Cruisers
Sweet flying monkey crap. Words can't even describe how utterly sickening this fight was. Listos version: AD won. Enhanced Listos Version: AD beat the flaming snot out of the TCs. Long version: Good lord dreads are sickening. It wasn't a matter of "Oh good piloting/bad piloting", it was a matter of "I pointed, they died." If it weren't for everyone desynching every time someone jumped the fight would have been over in UNDER five minutes. As it stood, with desynchs every time I jumped, and every time they jumped, it took about ten minutes. End result. I had 80% shields, 100% armor, 100% hull, and half my ammo left. doda was around 9 hull with no armor and presumably no systems, and YIIMM was at around 50% with me in prime positioning on him for a full alpha to the rear that would have annihilated him. I never once dipped below 50% armor and that was only because I got overzealous & went at Doda full speed firing ions every chance I got & torps every time I saw the chance. I ran out of energy & shut down shields to recharge, by the time Doda was near death & I had come around to work on YIIMM again I was back up into my shields again and armor was regenning. This needs severe attention... NOW! This was WAY WAY WAY out of balanced.
Final Result: Holy son of a monkeys butt... Dreadspace, here we ARE! This is NOT 2:1... this isn't 3:1... hell I'd be surprised if its even 4:1... but after 2 or 3 the dread would run out of ammo and have to go resupply! What EVER this ship points its nose at DIES. No iffs, ands, or butts about it! More dreads need testing but if ANY of the other dreads are comparable to the AD then we have a SERIOUS problem of balance. Don't believe me? TRY IT YOURSELF! DO NOT ASSUME!
Test #3
Assault Cruiser vs Two Assault Destroyers
This fight was the most balanced of them all, and the only reason that the AC took damage is due to its complete and utter lack of rear armor... the shield helps a lot, and had I had time to restock to active shields I might have been better off but as it stands, fight ended with AD1 at 15% hull, no armor, AD2 at about 60, no rear armor about 50% on the fore & sides. It was hard, we were avoiding jumping, which may have made a difference but honestly I don't think it would have made MUCH of one.
Final Result: Once again... 2:1 not maintained. The larger ships are just too powerful & their defenses too strong. 2.5:1 to 3:1 is the closest we would have gotten. The smaller ships just can't keep up the damage output to compensate when one ship is driven off by 1-2 alphas to the rear end.
Final Evaluation
If 2:1 is your mission then your mission has thusfar failed. Every ship is exponentially more powerful than the last it seems, and while Scouts>Frigs and Frigs>Dessies still need to be tested... barring some glaring inbalances in the tiny ships I don't foresee any way that the 2:1 ideal can be maintained.
To forestall the typical line of "But exact 2:1 isn't what we're going for" I ask you to re-read that theory that was posted in Ent's thread I believe it was, regarding the factoring of numbers & how that affects the outcome of the battle... because if I remember correctly Faustus said that was EXACTLY what he wanted... and thus far Beta has failed at that too.
[ This Message was edited by: Coeus on 2008-07-17 21:50 ]
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Leonide
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: October 01, 2005
Posts: 1553
From: Newport News, Virginia
| Posted: 2008-07-17 22:19
i am leonide, and i approve this message.
( i back up Coeus.)
EDIT: to elaborate, the Level system is throwing everything out of whack. bigger ships have more weapons AND at higher damage levels. Enterprise has said it before, and i will say it here. the level system does not work. we need to go back to what .480/.481/.482 had, set damage that weapons did, no level system.
[ This Message was edited by: leonide *FM* on 2008-07-17 22:23 ]
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Faustus
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 2748
From: Austin, Texas
| Posted: 2008-07-17 22:35
I kinda agree... we should either set all the ships to the same levels... or reduce the effect levels have on armor, shields, and weapon strengths.
-F
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Supertrooper
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 1895
From: Maryland, U.S.A
| Posted: 2008-07-17 23:08
Quote:
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On 2008-07-17 22:35, Faustus wrote:
I kinda agree... we should either set all the ships to the same levels... or reduce the effect levels have on armor, shields, and weapon strengths.
-F
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To be honest, the old pre-.483 weapon levels (None!) worked the best.
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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2008-07-18 04:54
Test 1
Team 1: 1 x Battle Dreadnought
Team 2: 2 x Assault Cruiser
Fight 1:
Winner: Team 1
24% hull, 11% armor.
Fight 2:
Winner: Team 1
29% hull, 29% armor.
Fight 3:
Winner: Team 2
Ship 1: 25% hull, 7% shield, 69% armor.
Ship 2: 81% hull, 35% shield, 44% armor.
Fight 4:
Winner: Team 1
1% hull, 30% armor.
Fight 5:
Winner: Team 1
44% hull, 16% armor.
Test 2
Team 1: 1 x Combat Dreadnought
Team 2: 2 x Torpedo Cruiser
Fight 1:
Winner: Team 2
Ship 1: 86% hull, 41% armor.
Fight 2:/[i]
Winner: Team 2
Ship 1: 75% hull, 50% armor.
Ship 2: 68% hull, 38% armor.
[i]Fight 3:
Winner: Team 2
Ship 1: 10% hull, 52% armor.
Fight 4:
Winner: Team 2
Ship 1: 63% hull, 44% armor.
Ship 2: 48% hull, 37% armor.
Fight 5:
Winner: Team 2
Ship 1: 67% hul, 38% armor.
Ship 2: 9% hull, 28% armor.l
EMP damage has been a deciding factor in producing these results.
Going to reduce the levels to 6/7 for dread/dread2, and 8 for stations.
[ This Message was edited by: Drafell on 2008-07-18 05:09 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2008-07-18 08:45
Personally, I think both systems don't work. You can set ships to the same level but then you make smaller ships better, not an alternative. Make larger ships a higher level gives the same problem vice versa.
For some food for though, think on this. Most RTS's, and some MMO's solve the problem through inherent advantages/disadvantages. A certain class may do more damage to another (example in DS: Destroyers do 1.5x more damage to other destroyers) , specific weapons may do more damage to a specific class (example in DS: Torpedos do more damage to larger ships).
Those kinds of things present a unique set of opportunities. You could simply set it so that all ships do more damage to their own class of ship as a base. And then you could add unique modifers to individual ships to give them a role which is defined by what they are most effective against.
For example, if say, you wanted Torpedo Cruisers to be most effective against Dreadnoughts and Stations, then you would make it so that it modifers allow it do more damage when assaulting a Dreadnought or Station than another cruiser, and then reduce the amount of damage it does to all other classes.
And it works the other way, some ships may have inherent vulnerabilities and resistances. Use your imagination, crawl out of cookie-cutter solutions. Some Stations may be weaker to torpedos but have higher resistances to everything else. Some Cruisers may have weaker resistances to laser and cannon damage but offer superior protection against torpedo based weapons. Its those kinds of dynamics that make no one ship better than another.
It also has an added advantage of giving newbies a chance without making them overpowered. (can you say Dreadnoughts weapons being less effective against scouts?)
Its also, in a way, much more streamlined. Instead of a mountain of numbers, start everything off from the same level, give increasingly more weapons and armor as the ship class goes up, then, throw on a multiplier.
And then tweak the individual ships. Yes, it makes DS into a sort of numbers game, but it doesn't in any way diminish skill. Yes, perhaps a Dreadnought wont be able to kill a Frigate in a single alpha strike, but its effectiveness is diminished against you too. But you'll still kill a cruiser faster than the frigate will.
Theorestically, levels are supposed to maintain this sort of balance, but thats only on paper. In reality, a larger ship is always more superior than a lesser variant. It also bases it around the idea of numerical superiority.
The problem is, that even in the case where one side is larger than another, why limit themselves to smaller ships? There no reason to choose 12 frigates over 12 destroyers. Its that kind of thing that alienates new players and makes it all but a race to the top. There has to be a better solution than this.
Think on it.
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2008-07-18 09:40 ]
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Coeus
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: March 22, 2006
Posts: 2815
From: Philly
| Posted: 2008-07-18 11:47
Look, I'm no developer and I certainly don't have the head for numbers that you guys have but there has to be a certain point whereby your whole ideal can work can't there?
When I get home tonight we'll redo the test after the daily update with Draf's new numbers. If the problem CAN be solved by tweaking the level numbers - which I have serious doubts that it can but I'll play along - then it should just be a matter of adjusting until they work, right?
I will continue to run my tests using the assault classes rather than the standard combat classes - my thinking being that these are the utmost extreme ships and the most powerful of their classes. If we can get these to within reason then we can balance out the other ships to match - but the assault class dreads & cruisers & stations should be our starting basis for combat balance.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2008-07-18 12:44
We can try and tweak it if we can. Personally I don't think there is a median point where all ships are equally good. But if it can be attained, its preferrable than trying to start from scratch.
Lower dreadnought levels just mean that ships like Combat Dreadnought die even easier. As for the other factions, it should also bring an noticeable effect. Its worth testing, when the new numbers are in. In the end though its a choice between CruiserSpace and DreadSpace.
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2008-07-18 12:55 ]
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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2008-07-18 15:52
Assault class cruisers are not really the ships you should be using to try taking out Assault class dreadnoughts. Assault dreads reign supreme at close range, and the most effective method of beating them is to keep out of the effective combat range, which precludes the use of smaller assault ships.
Assault class vessels would more correctly be used against Combat or Ranged ships.
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doda *EP5 no longer exception...*
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 11, 2005
Posts: 1012
From: happy land
| Posted: 2008-07-18 17:55
Quote:
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On 2008-07-18 15:52, Drafell wrote:
Assault class cruisers are not really the ships you should be using to try taking out Assault class dreadnoughts. Assault dreads reign supreme at close range, and the most effective method of beating them is to keep out of the effective combat range, which precludes the use of smaller assault ships.
Assault class vessels would more correctly be used against Combat or Ranged ships.
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that is a very good point, not all classes were tested. Using an assault class ship against a higher level ship did not work out very well. Although you are able to hit a specific arc. The enemy's superior armour and firepower take away that advantage. Rather we should have been using missle/combat ships against stronger ships. To take advantage of the bigger ships lack in speed and manuverability.
And at the AI testing. That is also not very accurate. Actual players do more than sit their and alpha each other. AI does not take into account evasive manuvers to avoid getting hit. And timed point jumps. And also human mistakes.
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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2008-07-19 18:48
Tests after update...
Test 1
Team 1: 1 x Battle Dreadnought
Team 2: 2 x Assault Cruiser
Fight 1:
Winner: Team 1
23% hull, 18% armor.
Fight 2:
Winner: Team 1
22% hull, 6% armor.
Fight 3:
Winner: Team 1
21% hull, 31% armor.
Fight 4:
Winner: Team 2
Ship 1: 37% hull, 6% shield, 27% armor.
Ship 2: 21% hull, 51% shield, 29% armor.
Fight 5:
Winner: Team 1
7% hull, 23% armor.
A huge problem in this testing is the AI's lack of ability to rotate shields. The Cruisers often died with shields near full on one or two arcs.
Test 2
Team 1: 1 x Combat Dreadnought
Team 2: 2 x Torpedo Cruiser
Fight 1:
Winner: Team 2
Ship 1: 59% hull, 44% armor.
Ship 2: 3% hull, 28% armor.
Fight 2:
Winner: Team 2
Ship 1: 9% hull, 30% armor.
Ship 2: 100% hull, 52% armor.
Fight 3:
Winner: Team 2
Ship 1: 96% hull, 37% armor.
Ship 2: 97% hull, 41% armor.
Fight 4:
Winner: Team 2
Ship 1: 27% hull, 23% armor.
Ship 2: 100% hull, 55% armor.
Fight 5:
Winner: Team 2
Ship 1: 99% hull, 74% armor.
Ship 2: 71% hull, 33% armor.
[ This Message was edited by: Drafell on 2008-07-20 06:31 ]
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_x$witchBladex_ [1.480 Fanboy]
Grand Admiral
Joined: February 26, 2003
Posts: 849
From: Upstate New York
| Posted: 2008-07-19 19:11
Quote:
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On 2008-07-17 22:35, Faustus wrote:
I kinda agree... we should either set all the ships to the same levels...
-F
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I've been saying this for how long?
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2008-07-20 00:27
Argh, continual edits. I'm going to put it bluntly then. The 2 vs 1 system does not work well under actual fleet conditions.
This is because every class of ship is more effective against the one directly below it, rather than their own class. This is because various tactics and the level system, allow bigger ships take on smaller ships one on one easier than it takes two ships of the same class. Skill, and teamwork may have some effect, but in most cases they average out anyways. DS is about fleet battles, after all, but using this example lets me point out how it presents an issue on a larger scale.
I say one on one, because when you then apply it to a larger fleet battle, the same thing happens. The side with the bigger ships wins because almost all battles larger than six people are not 2 to one. They are almost always equal sided, or close to it.
Because we are assuming a Darkspace that actually has 60 people on it on one time, ideally they would be spread evenly across the factions. This even distribution, and the way everyone flocks to the battle, means that fleet sizes will remain close to equal.
In this case, there is no advantage to flying a smaller ships. You do not have the advantage of numbers. The best course of action, is always getting the biggest ship you can. This is because if you outnumber a fleet, having bigger ships makes you harder to kill, and it makes them easier to kill if they are smaller than you. If you are equal, then getting the biggest ships means you maximize the amount of effectiveness each person represents (the other side would have to get similar or larger amounts of larger ships in order to have the advantage). If you have less people than the other side, getting the largest ships means you stand a better chance, because numerically, if they have smaller ships it will be evenly matched, and if they have larger ships then you are better off than in smaller ships.
No matter what, getting the biggest ship possible is the best thing to do. Even if you outnumber the enemy fleet, there is no advantage over choosing a smaller ship to fly.
This is a problem that spans beyond Dreadnoughts. They are the best examples, but it really spans all the way down to scouts. Its faster, and easier, to kill a smaller ship one on one with a bigger one.
The point is, there is no incentive to fly a smaller ship in a battle of even sides. You can try it out in Beta and see for yourself. Try fighting 6 destroyers against 6 frigates. Try fighting 6 cruisers against 6 dreadnoughts. Those are what battles in the MV will be like. Only slightly more mixed. Try spawning 6 cruisers fighting 6 dreadnoughts, and 6 cruisers fighting 6 cruisers. See which battle ends faster.
A solution to the problem would be hard limits of ships, that way the smaller ships always outnumber the larger ones. And that larger ships are only present with the most numerous of players online. Its better than starting from scratch...
It is also pretty easy to balance with the level system as it is. Scouts, Frigates, Supplies, Engineers, and Transports would not have a hard limit. But everything else would.
The way it could work, is that once two people are online a Destroyer slot will open up. Once three people, a second destroyer slot. After a fourth person, then a Cruiser slot. And so on. That way you'd need about eight people for the first dreadnought. And you'd need 16 for a station.
It keeps it in check. There will always be at least one person delegated to a support role, or in a minor combat ship. People who do so in numbers, leave extra slots open, in possibly larger ships. First come first serve would be the best way to go.
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2008-07-20 02:20 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2008-07-20 02:50 ]
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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2008-07-20 06:49
Test 1
Team 1:
2 x Torpedo Cruiser
1 x Battle Cruiser
1 x Battle Dreadnought
1 x Elite Assault Dreadnought
Team 2:
2 x Assault Cruiser
1 x Heavy Cruiser
1 x Combat Dreadnought
1 x Assault Dreadnought
Fight 1:
Winner: Team 1
EAD: 40% hull, 62% armor.
Fight 2:
Winner: Team 1
EAD: 80% hull, 36% armor.
Fight 3:
Winner: Team 1
TC: 100% hull, 63% armor.
TC: 83% hull, 42% armor.
BC: 60% hull, 47% armor.
EAD: 55% hull, 26% armor.
Fight 4:
Winner: Team 1
TC: 86% hull, 30% armor.
BD: 10% hull, 32% armor.
EAD: 40% hull, 27% armor.
[ This Message was edited by: Drafell on 2008-07-20 07:22 ]
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Axianda The Royal
Fleet Admiral
Terra Squadron
Joined: November 20, 2001
Posts: 4273
From: Axianda
| Posted: 2008-07-20 07:30
on the issue of the fleet test.
it is as Draf said earlier the lack of Shield rotation is what keeps the ICC from using the one thing htey are built on. greater defense.
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