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Forum Index » » Developer Feedback » » Ship Rarity, Badges, and You

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Ship Rarity, Badges, and You

Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors

Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada

Posted: 2008-06-26 03:19

With 1.5 coming close to being ready to release there is one specific problem which has nagged a couple people, and recently myself.

One of the things I notice in Beta, and as I have in past versions, is that people love Dreadnoughts. This isnt normally a bad thing.

Infact, normally, in past versions, that was acceptable, if slightly irritating.

But those were in versions where a skilled destroyer pilot would kick the ass of a good or bad dreadnought pilot.

Not so in 1.5 which requires teamwork and small ships working groups to take down larger ships. While in essense this works well with theory and in how the game should play out it leaves a problem.

No one wants to fly smaller ships. Why? Because they're not as good as larger ships. They dont have as many weapons, as much energy, as much armor, and all around just arent as tough and requires alot more knowhow than Dreadnoughts do.

This leaves a problem, because Dreadnoughts are easier to use and that, while groups of smaller ships are good, groups of larger ships are better..

Why? Because for example, It takes one cruiser to take down one other cruiser. It takes two cruisers to take down one dreadnought.

In pracitcality then, two dreadnoughts is better than one cruiser. You'd then need four cruisers.

What about three dreadnoughts? Or four? Mobility only limits dreadnoughts so much when the hail of fire of six dreadnoughts would take twelve cruisers to take down.

Yeowtch. Therefore, with the way player numbers are, its alot more economical, safer, and faster to just get in a dreadnought yourself. No one wants to fly small ships because they dont have to, and its not as beneficial to.. Just look in Beta when there are people in there, Ill wager that people who can get in dreadnoughts probably are in one.

And it wont make a difference in release either. Dreadnoughts may be vulnerable on their own but in a pack they become a force to be reckoned with. Concentrated firepower is deadly.

This also normally wouldnt be a problem. But in seven years Darkspace has amassed substantial amount of people who can get in dreadnoughts. This leaves the pivotal problem of the game being top heavy. Theres usually supposed to be something to give incentive to older players to fly smaller ships.

But why fly smaller ships when, with skill, you still can't take on a Dreadnought on your own? He might not be able to kill you, but you sure as hell wont kill him. What does prestige matter when you have over 100,000 of it? Fly a dreadnought. Then your skill comes into play.

Therefore we get the dreaded DreadSpace. And I am here to propose a solution to this theoretical and likely problem.

New badges.

The simplest solution, is just to make them harder to get. Harder to get means less people have them. Therefore, less people to use them. Badges, as they are, arent hard to get.

You can pretty much get gold star by 1st Rear Admiral if you're savvy.

But most people tend to specialize in their chosen field that they're best at, whether its combat, or support, or (haha) bombing, once they have gold star they tend to lean towards what they are good at.

So why not base dreadnoughts around this idea? Simply put, install a new tier. Call it Advanced [insert Combat, Support, etc.] badge, or whatever. Make it sounds specialized or just another rank (Platinum woo.), and stick it at a 10k requirement. Or even 20k, if you want to make it a real challenge.

I'd prefer 20k myself, but thats just me.

And then, make every Dreadnought require one of these advanced badges. A Battle Dreadnought, for example, would require Platinum Combat Badge, or whatever. And then the rest of the requirements can be whatever you want but lower than that. Probably gold badges.

Though personally Assault Dreadnoughts should cost two (Combat and Support, likely).

What does it mean? It probably means that most people will have to be halfway to Fleet Admiral, if they're perfect and never died, before they get their first dreadnought.

And probably halfway to Grand Admiral before they get their hands on the holy grail of Dreadnoughts.

And then go from there. Make stations require a multiple of these badges, forcing people to become highly successful in a number of places before they have the chance to use such powerful platforms.

Poor Command Stations, requiring Platinum Star.

Scary right? Might turn off older players? Well thats the cost of keeping DS from meaning DreadSpace. It makes Dreadnoughts rare without a hard limit, it forces people to work harder for such powerful platforms of destruction, it insures that people behind such platforms know what they are doing, and it makes their rarity worth the fear they will instill on the battlefield, rather than being a common sight.

(the latter is why I really said 20k instead of 10k).

The cost is high for people who have played a long time (even me!), but I don't care, because if you want a game thats supposed to revolve around large groups of small ships, you can't do it without making powerful Dreadnoughts rare.

If the evidence and logic I have given isnt enough, and you haven't seen enough in Beta, well you'll see for yourself then come 1.5.

-Ent

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Banshee
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors

Joined: August 28, 2001
Posts: 2181
From: Philadelphia, PA

Posted: 2008-06-26 03:41

Signed.

He stole my idea, but signed anyway.
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Axianda The Royal
Fleet Admiral
Terra Squadron

Joined: November 20, 2001
Posts: 4273
From: Axianda

Posted: 2008-06-26 03:57

I like the idea of making the dreads a higher to aquire *spelled right?* however i see 1 small flaw in the reasoning.

you say that 1 dread = 2 cruisers correct

it does not mean that a fleet of 6 dreads require 12 cruisers. ideally yes it would be great because that way each dread is up against 2 cruisers.
however as soon as more than 2 cruisers attack a single target the target WILL start to sweat. especially since the loody dread costs quite a penny in prestige.
add a dictor in the mix and you got yourself a trap and the bunny that runs from the dreads. lovely aint it. to escape they need to kill the bunny but to kill the bunny they stay inside the dictor field.

how long do you think any target can last against concentrated enemy fire?
be it IT missiles or torpedo's.

so to up the requirements for dreads especially the super dreads, YES
but dont overdo it. dreads are scary but they also make for one hell of a big target.
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- Axi

Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors

Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada

Posted: 2008-06-26 04:26

Im going to take a proactive approach to arguments in this thread.

Quote:[/small]

On 2008-06-26 03:57, Axianda wrote:
I like the idea of making the dreads a higher to aquire *spelled right?* however i see 1 small flaw in the reasoning.

you say that 1 dread = 2 cruisers correct

it does not mean that a fleet of 6 dreads require 12 cruisers. ideally yes it would be great because that way each dread is up against 2 cruisers.
however as soon as more than 2 cruisers attack a single target the target WILL start to sweat. especially since the loody dread costs quite a penny in prestige.
add a dictor in the mix and you got yourself a trap and the bunny that runs from the dreads. lovely aint it. to escape they need to kill the bunny but to kill the bunny they stay inside the dictor field.

how long do you think any target can last against concentrated enemy fire?
be it IT missiles or torpedo's.

so to up the requirements for dreads especially the super dreads, YES
but dont overdo it. dreads are scary but they also make for one hell of a big target.

Concentrated fire works both ways, and in this case, 6 Dreadnoughts will kill one cruiser faster than 12 cruisers will kill one dreadnought, simply because Cruisers do more damage over time, while Dreadnoughts do more 'burst' damage.

Again, it would lean on organization and tactics, but even on paper, the dreadnoughts will outlast the cruisers because cruisers simply die faster.

And again, also in the case of long range damage, remember that Dreadnoughts have the armor and the point defense to resist the heavier firepower while the cruisers get picked off or forced to run.

I have no doubt that dreadnoughts, in that scenario would take losses, but they would come out on top. Theres also the fact that, in numbers, its alot easier to get six people in dreadnoughts than it is to get 12 people in equal or less powerful ships.

-Ent

[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2008-06-26 04:27 ]
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy

Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England

Posted: 2008-06-26 07:42

Your arguement is flawed in the reasoning that 6 dreads can easily hit those 12 cruisers.

I like the idea of advanced badges, but think 10k is a bit steep. Somewhere between 5-7.5k sounds more ideal.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors

Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada

Posted: 2008-06-26 08:03

Quote:[/small]

On 2008-06-26 07:42, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
Your arguement is flawed in the reasoning that 6 dreads can easily hit those 12 cruisers.

I like the idea of advanced badges, but think 10k is a bit steep. Somewhere between 5-7.5k sounds more ideal.

Solved by a tractor beam point jump.

Enemy ship jumps away you say? A second dreadnought should be able to take advantage of that easily. Unless it long jumps of course. Might as well let it go then.

Interdictor among those cruisers? Wont last long with six dreadnoughts raining fire on it (I'd love to see an interdictor dodge missiles, fighters, and cannons from six dreadnoughts at the speed required not to lose energy). Will the dreadnoughts sustain losses? Definitely, but I'd happily wager those Dreadnoughts would probably win.

In normal conditions, with a Dreadnought not doing everything it can to close to distance, or being on its own, or being dictored, then 2 cruisers would probably win. Infact, one cruiser being a dictor and the other an attack cruiser could probably easily destroy a lone dreadnought.

But with six working together, well thats six dreadnoughts. Imagine if those dreadnoughts were Aeigncourts? Man that'd be fun. Or maybe six Missile Dreadnoughts? Im sure some of those missiles would hit.

But in reality the groups would probably be mixed, and there probably would not be all Dreadnoughts (nor would there be all cruisers), but as it stands, a battlegroup mostly consisting of dreadnoughts has the advantage. That much is certain, I was simply exaggerating for effect.

But the real question I was attempting to illustrate, is why would those 12 people be in cruisers? Its not a far jump from Battle Cruiser to Carrier Dreadnought. Barely hopping in fact. 12 Carrier Dreadnoughts. Imagine that raining fire and brimstone on six dreadnoughts.

Personally, I think 12 low end dreadnoughts are alot safer, alot more powerful than 12 high end cruisers vs. a group of six dreadnoughts. Don't you agree? Why would they bother? The prestige loss from low end Dreadnoughts isn't terribly high, unlike assault class Dreadnoughts are. Some food for thought.

Personally, I aimed for 10k - 20k because it seemed like a goal that lengthened the gap between cruisers and Dreadnoughts. It has always been a short gap, and to me, too early to throw people into something as supposedly dangerous and as powerful as they are. It gives time for people to see the merits of smaller ships in packs before jumping into the seat of a death machine which may or may not appeal to them. It tells people to slow down a little, and perhaps the rank will match the badges for ships.

-Ent

[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2008-06-26 08:12 ]
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Shiva[God of Fire]
Vice Admiral

Joined: November 01, 2007
Posts: 10

Posted: 2008-06-26 08:26

Quote:

On 2008-06-26 07:42, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:

I like the idea of advanced badges, but think 10k is a bit steep. Somewhere between 5-7.5k sounds more ideal.

Id agree with backslash because being a realatively new player, getting a a badge that requires 20k prestige in one area sounds ridiculous to me, in 6 months ive gotten less prestige total than that and 10k should be the max possible prestige that a badge requires arond 6k would keep things fair to new players like myself who dont have a billion pres and aren't grand admirals with every ship.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors

Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada

Posted: 2008-06-26 08:50

Quote:

On 2008-06-26 08:26, shiva[god of fire] wrote:
Quote:

On 2008-06-26 07:42, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:

I like the idea of advanced badges, but think 10k is a bit steep. Somewhere between 5-7.5k sounds more ideal.

Id agree with backslash because being a realatively new player, getting a a badge that requires 20k prestige in one area sounds ridiculous to me, in 6 months ive gotten less prestige total than that and 10k should be the max possible prestige that a badge requires arond 6k would keep things fair to new players like myself who dont have a billion pres and aren't grand admirals with every ship.

At 10k stats requirement, most current players would fall short and a portion of long time/old players would too.

At 20k, only the top ten players could probably still claim to have access to every ship.

But I can sympathize, theres these wonderful looking Dreadnoughts, you don't want to be 'stuck' as it were, in the same ship for too long. But perhaps Im again, still referrig to my own experiences which never required a grind. Since 1.5 will likely be that way, its why It seemed reasonable to me.

In an 1.483 MV, badge requirements like that would be ridiciulous, I agree, but in 1.5, with massive amounts of hull (both to be destroyed and repaired), bombing.. I dont even have to go there.. construction.. same. Navigation? 20k jumps might be a bit out there. As for planets captured that would be better situated at 2,000 (which in an MV where you will likely capture planets mostly intact, isnt as far as you think).

To me, 7.5k still seems like too small of a number. The main purpose, beyond extending the gap and making earning Dreadnoughts more rewarding, is also to limit the number of Dreadnoughts in the field. As I've stated, groups with dreadnoughts in the majority make for serious problems for new players who want to get in on the action but are forced to compete against things that they cannot reasonably expect to hope to defeat without serious losses or vast numerical superiority (think dozens).

It is, in truth, also a temporary solution on that front, until a way is solved to permanently reduce the incentive to field such large and powerful vessles almost exclusively. As it stands, if both sides have six players, and one side decides to get dreadnoughts, do you really think, if the other side is capable, is just going to stay in cruisers?

-Ent

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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners

Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly

Posted: 2008-06-26 09:03

The other point is that if you got a dread now, would you know what to do with it? By creating a larger gap before the powerful ships can be attained you assure that people will have some actual experience flying these things and won't be demoted first thing as soon as they get them. That makes it more fun for you, more challenging & entertaining for the enemy, and makes you a better benefit to your teammates.

Sooo... wheres the downside in this? That it takes a little longer and you actually have to earn the right to fly the most powerful ships in the game? Sorry, not sold on that arguement.
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Darkspace: Twilight

Sardaukar
Admiral
Raven Warriors

Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 1656

Posted: 2008-06-26 09:48

I still think that as far as limiting the number of dreads in play goes, this is only a temporary fix and one that can have unforeseen consequences depending on how the platinum badge owners are distributed across timezones and factions. As is probably an essay in offline /send F chat for some people, I'd rather the dreadnaughts be rebalanced on the idea of Speed/Armor/Firepower(Pick Two), with a loss in jumping speed and/or jumpdrive recharge time, so that they are still mighty, but take awhile to get to an offensive fight and are better escorted to safety for repairs than lost and waited on for replacement. Yes, it could affect how they perform in close combat, as far as one-on-one fights without regard to nearby planets goes, but then this is a game about team warfare and roles, not dueling. I hope.
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CrashDown
Cadet

Joined: May 29, 2007
Posts: 63
From: Estonia

Posted: 2008-06-26 10:33

yeh 10k for a badge is a bit steep, especially if your new and a bunch of people allready have 100k+ prestige heh

its like saysing, ooh ill take an EAD but everyone else should take ceptor frigs so i can kill em with 1 QST.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors

Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada

Posted: 2008-06-26 10:35

Yeah yeah I know, more long posts, but its alot to cover.

Quote:

On 2008-06-26 09:48, Sardaukar wrote:
I still think that as far as limiting the number of dreads in play goes, this is only a temporary fix and one that can have unforeseen consequences depending on how the platinum badge owners are distributed across timezones and factions. As is probably an essay in offline /send F chat for some people, I'd rather the dreadnaughts be rebalanced on the idea of Speed/Armor/Firepower(Pick Two), with a loss in jumping speed and/or jumpdrive recharge time, so that they are still mighty, but take awhile to get to an offensive fight and are better escorted to safety for repairs than lost and waited on for replacement. Yes, it could affect how they perform in close combat, as far as one-on-one fights without regard to nearby planets goes, but then this is a game about team warfare and roles, not dueling. I hope.

Personally, as outlined in an essay of offline /send f, I favor reducing the speed and manueverability of Dreadnoughts in general. However since Dreadnought balance has not be finalized and how they may be altered in the future is unclear, I see no reason to offer permanent solutions which may or may not fit with the Dev's ideas of what dreadnoughts 'should' be.

Again, as a game of teamwork, thats what 1.5 is designed around, as I have seen. The way that 1.5 seems layed out to me, is that there is supposed to be a large amount of players in small ships vs. a small amount of players in large ships, therefore keeping balance in line. This is one of the many reasons why higher stat requiring badges works, at least in the short term. Most people simply will be unable to fly Dreadnoughts, and thus enforces people to remain in smaller ships until they gain the neccessary stats. It also has the additional benefits already outlined earlier in this topic.

However, again, there is little to no incentive to fly smaller ships, and Dreadnoughts are readily available to almost all current players. Low ranks combined with low badges leaves a short jump from the pivitol cruiser role to the true backbone of fleets with little time inbetween. This leaves newer players at a massive disadvantage, a gap that would take an enormous amount of patience on the part of newer players to breach.

But it only adds to the Dreadnought count in the end. After getting pummeled continually in a cruiser, you think they'll stay in one? The premise of 1.5 works, but without a way of limiting larger ships or at least giving incentive to flying smaller ones, there is no reason stay pinned in smaller ones, eliminating any compettion for new players as well as destroying diversity in fleets. Again, most of this has been outlined before.

I also want to point out a flaw in the 2 vs 1 working relationship that leaves ample room for problems. It offers only cookie-cutter counters to scenarios in which two sides of a fight are fairly even - in numbers. If say there were ten people on one side and ten on the other, without any true limiting factors, if one side is capable they could outfit themselves mostly in dreadnoughts. The only possible counter-measure to this is to outfit the fleet also in as many dreadnoughts as possible, keeping the way balance is designed in check. In this game of superior firepower, new players are left hopelessly outmatched.

Again, I point out that smaller prestige loss is little incentive to people with too much of it already. After all, it didn't completely stop people from still flying dreadnoughts even though they royally sucked in 1.483, despite the huge prestige loss. And now they are both very strong as well as cost less than before.

Also, drawing from experience, there have been few fights I've attended that were not close to fairly even on most occasions, the ones that were not fairly even, numerically, did not generally last long - one side typically gets wiped out fairly quickly. This will be even more likely to occur in the next version where the outmatching side not entirely composed of new players in frigates and destroyers.

I wish to note that in cases where one side outnumbers another in 1.5, if capable of larger ships, people are unlikely to stay in smaller ships if they do not have to, instead resorting to larger ships with more firepower which in numbers, allievated many of the weaknesses inherent in such larger ships, and provides a swifter end to fights. Again, drawing from experience.

That is why an artificial requisite, such as additional badges in my opinion, is the best option. It is a temporary one, as eventually Darkspace would be come top heavy again, and once more Dreadnoughts would dominate the battlefield. It is up to developers to come up with ways to make Dreadnoughts both strong but unappealing to most people, or at the very least, smaller ships much more appealing to use on a day to day basis. Without either of those, people are likely to persue what they percieve as stronger, whether or not on paper it is or not. I myself still remain unconvinced that cruisers or less pose any serious threat to a Dreadnought fleet except in cases where they are vastly outmatched, and occurence that is rare to manifest itself in actual gameplay.

-Ent
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral

Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059

Posted: 2008-06-26 10:40

...Or, perhaps, you choose what area to specialize in, and you need the gold version of that badge to specialize

example:

I have

Gold Navigator
Gold Building
Silver resupply
Gold Combat
Gold Friendly Fire (Kidding)

I can specialize in Building OR combat. Or even nothing. Meaning I can choose on the website (or somewhere else) to "specialize" in a field. I then receive a badge (or a flag, or a boolean, or whatever) that allows me to access certain ships in the game that allow me......specialize in my field. Meaning certain ships become available, and certain ones are disasbled.

Example:

I choose to specialize in combat as a UGTO

EAD is unlocked.
Battle Station is unlocked

Second Tier Engineer is locked
Second Tier Resupply is locked
Second Tier Transport is locked

Agincourt is locked
Missile ships are locked. (Maybe...)
Command ships are locked.
Supply/Command station is locked
Cruiser and Destroyer bomber is locked

also, just in case this idea turns out to be feasable

Navigation = command ships
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Deltabacon
Fleet Admiral

Joined: August 17, 2007
Posts: 395
From: Liverpool, Great Britain

Posted: 2008-06-26 10:57

i say leave the pres requirements but have the pres buffer idea but have the pres drop the same as now
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Deltabacon
Fleet Admiral

Joined: August 17, 2007
Posts: 395
From: Liverpool, Great Britain

Posted: 2008-06-26 10:58

now as in the pres loss in .483
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