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Beacons... |
Gideon
Cadet
Joined: September 14, 2001
Posts: 4604
From: Oregon, USA
|  Posted: 2007-10-10 18:18
A different thought on beacons:
Everything has a counter. ECM and ECCM. Damage and armor.
Maybe a component that, when used, removes the beacons on a ship?
Give it a decent charge time and mild energy requirement, and with the correct balancing, beaconing becomes an art, not a spam.
Just a thought.
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2007-10-10 21:38
Quote:
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On 2007-10-10 18:18, Gideon wrote:
Maybe a component that, when used, removes the beacons on a ship?
Give it a decent charge time and mild energy requirement, and with the correct balancing, beaconing becomes an art, not a spam.
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The problem with beacons right now, the way I see it, is that they are *extremely vital* against k'luth, yet theirs no true way to use "skill" with beacons - they track horribly and move slow. So people spam them, hoping for that one to hit, not caring if one hundred do
Also, Relevant to this topic:
--Dev Log--
- Removed the level modifier on beacons (they now add 20 signature regardless of ships they're equiped on)
--Dev Log--
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2007-10-11 04:32
Well there have already been significant changes to beacons thus far, besides what Rob said.
For one, they're being restricted soley to scouts with their own special slot. There goes the spam.
Theres also, I've seen discussed, that beacons will instead of immediately revealing a luth and keeping it from cloaking, it will merely take much much longer to cloak.
There have also been discussions of the supply gadget Reload removing them automatically as well.
Just an FYI post.
-Ent
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2007-10-11 04:43
Alternately, in line with Gid's original suggestion of reload time and energy requirement, and meshing with Ent's idea of reload drones (as has been done in the past),
first off, perhaps have the drones require a wee bit of energy, such that certain heavy supplies can't fly around at max speed running their sups AND weapons;
secondly, have reloads slowly reduce the effectiveness of the beacons - that is, they can wear down the added signature over time, say a sig point every 30 ticks or something (that'd be 30 seconds to remove a beacon).
Then there's the question of whether drones remove the sig points from every beacon on a ship concurrently, such that X beacons are removed in 30 seconds, or sequentially, such that X beacons are removed in 30*X seconds.
This would, on a side note, make the Gang or whatever has the drones on kluth, be that much more strategically valuable.
[edit] Also - If a beacon increases recloak time, the drones would not necessarily be a "save the day" intervention, but simply make the cloak more efficient if the ship is beaconed.
With a decent number of beacons, 30 seconds may be far too long, especially if done sequentially. On the other hand, faster may be too short, especially if done concurrently.
It might be hard to make them work sequentially, code-wise, but I'm no expert. I would guess that concurrent action would be comparatively simple.
Another option, if we wanted greater battlefield ship diversity, would be to split out the device but have it use the same concept, and put it on a ship with a couple ECM as well - so it can do broad-based cloak assistance (faster to get to 0 = faster to cloak) as well as help a specific ship, if it is beaconed.
This all assumes that beacons are relatively common though; if they are relegated to scouts, that may not be the case.
[ This Message was edited by: Shigernafy on 2007-10-11 04:49 ]
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Diabo|ik
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 16, 2002
Posts: 327
From: Quebec, Canada
| Posted: 2007-10-11 16:37
Beacons are "vital" versus destroyer class ships and below, but anything bigger than that is pretty easy to chase away without any need for beacons. Even the scale class cruiser, which is the only ship above destroyer class the Kluth has that can effectively hit&run ( albeit from afar, not close up as it was intended ), can easily be made to run with very few well placed volleys of cannons or torpedoes.
Against dreads, beacons are now a "I win" button. Even without them, K'luth dreads of any number ( say 5 ) Vs an enemy fleet of 5 dreads or 3 dreads and 2 or more cruisers are severely gimped since they're slow, have very limited EFFECTIVE weapon arcs and paper thin armor. If hull values would be MUCH higher, this would alleviate the problem of K'luth dreads being unable to effectively practice "proper upclose hit&run K'luth tactics".
Also, making K'luth dreads/cruisers much more faster/maneuverable would help some without fiddling with anything else.
K'luth ships are "supposed" to try to get up close to be effective then run like hell, yet it's the opposite that is hapenning right now, Human ships try to get as close as possible and we have to TRY keep our distances to "win" and they don't even need to run like hell!
But it's barely feasible since most K'luth ships are only effective at dealing damage by having the opposite ship on the front arc, often resulting in a dread taking damage ONLY to the front armor arc before dying or having to run.
I know we aren't supposed to be able to duke it out, but human ships aren't supposed to try to fight up-close against K'luth ships either. All their guns and torpedoes have a longer range, except the lasers ( which they only use as last resorts or to finish a target once it's dead in the water ). And moreso, Human ships have begun to use closer range weapons instead of their own long range weapons because they're more effective. Like UGTO/ICC using p-torps and psi cannons instead of their factions torps and cannons.
With the upcoming changes to lasers, this can only get much worse.
Alternatively, the only other non-suicidal tactic is to sneak up behind an enemy that is not itself protected by another ship in the rear and pound him while sticking to his rear end as close as possible. Even then, most fights against any type of dread ( including command dreads ) in a Manadible or Siphon results in a lose on the K'luth side. Being a better pilot don't help much since I witnessed and experienced repeated losses to greatly outskilled pilots in this very manner. Any other angle of approach is simply suicidal.
Soon we'll have to resort to gauss guns... Okay I exagerate a bit but you see my point. 
To quote Rogue Spear: "FYI just be thankful your dealing with the current form of kluth... trust me these things are kittens compared to the kluth that I grew up in this game with."
The new changes to dreads and beacons are gonna need A LOT of extensive testing in every situation possible to make sure they're balanced properly.
Also, AM torps are so slow that they're ALMOST useless right now even against slow moving Dreads and static stations. Either they miss or it's suicidal to get close enough to fire them at the station. Nobody use them.
Maybe a bit off topic in the end, but still, balancing beacons is about balancing the fights between K'luth and human factions, so it isn't off topic after all.
Whew, didn't intend to make it that long, but there you have it.
Edit: One last thing worthy of noting, why is it that the most effective and widely used K'luth ship setups after 2 years of this build going retail consists of long range fusion torps and particle cannons/psi cannons instead of am torps and disruptors? It's not like we didn't try EVERYTHING else already, considering the ingenuity and ressourcefullness of most K'luth pilots. The proof? We still manage to miraculously win from time to time despite all of this. We should think about this thoroughly. And BTW, giving more range to disruptors isn't the long-term answer, it's more like a drug addict quick and easy "fix".
P.S.: Keep up the good work folks, yeah, we argue, but that's because we all share the same feelings about this game, and I'm sure you do too, otherwise you wouldn't sacrifice time you could spend elsewhere in your own lives to make DS a better game. For that, we will be eternally thankfull.
[ This Message was edited by: Diabo|ik on 2007-10-11 17:15 ]
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Diabo|ik
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 16, 2002
Posts: 327
From: Quebec, Canada
| Posted: 2007-10-11 17:55
One last thing about the claok mechanics. One argument I hear often is that it gives us the "first strike advantage".
The way it actually works gives rather gives the humans that advantage.
When we uncloak ( which takes a LONG time ), we can't fire, but we're visible and often firied up 1 or 2 times before we can "strike first".
Making it work so that when we uncloak we can fire as soon as hitting the K button would be nice, as long as you don't allow us to fire while we are in the process of cloaking, unless that "beacon adding to timer thing is implemented", the issue about being unable to fire while cloaking would be minimal.
But... Only a small change like this "able to fire while cloaking and uncloaking" and being visible as soon as you begin the uncloaking process could prevent abuse as well as facilitate "hit&run" tactics.
If we can fire while cloaking, something like a "can't recloak until the uncloaking process is finished" ( the cloak button would be greyed out much like when the JD recharges until the uncloaking process is finished ) would need to be implemented as well to avoid exploitation. But keeping the ability to be able to uncloak before the cloaking process is finished would need to stay in, as it can't be exploited.
And now I shut up ... for a while!
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Sixkiller
Marshal
Courageous Elite Commandos
Joined: May 11, 2005
Posts: 1786
From: Netherlands
| Posted: 2007-10-15 02:00
I like that, make uncloack instant unless your beaconed, because if your beaconed, your not really "first-striking" anymore.
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Feralwulf
Grand Admiral
Joined: January 24, 2004
Posts: 1729
From: sitting somewhere drinking beer
| Posted: 2007-10-19 17:21
Well I've always said making beacons a Scout ONLY "Weapon" was the wrong way to go. I think making Beacons, Tractor beams, and Mining beams there own slot is a better way to go. then you have what? Extractors, Supplys, Engineers :none of which would last long enough against most Kluth ships to "Spam" beacons, and a few Dreads, and the Stations...which would take some amount of skill to land a beacon.
Reduce the number of beacons (say maybe 5) and increase the recharge timer on beacons.
This way, Beacon spammed Kluth are less annoyed by beacons, and UGTO/ICC don't have to rely SOLELY on newbies in scouts, or other more experienced players Sacrificing Combat fun, and prestige to land A beacon on A ship....as a scout will live long enough to press T once before being destroyed.
And tell me this. If I can only fire a certain number of bombs, mines, and or fighters....why not the same for beacons? and if Beacons already have that limit WHY is it so high?
I have to wait for my Bombs or Mines to expire/explode before I can fire more.....why not beacons too?
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