| Author |
New Sensor System [LONG] |
Max Kepler
Fleet Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: March 08, 2002
Posts: 589
From: ICS Victory
|  Posted: 2003-09-21 22:41
With the upcoming patch comes new ideas for things. While looking for something on my old computer, I found an old post for a new sensor system that would be vastly more complex than the current, and in my opinion, much more realisic. On the other hand, it was poorly written and vague. Sooo.. I thought I'd re-iterate my point, writing a better post, and adding pictures!
Here goes:
Right now, signature and distance are the only factors determining whether you can detect the ship or not. You all know how that works. The NEW system would entail 2 new concepts. But first, let's get the basics down.
There are currently 3 factors that a ship has that decides its signature: Size, Components, and ECM/ECCM effects. Size meaning the size of the ship -- Dreads have more natural signature than scouts, obviously. Components meaning that certain parts of the ship cause the ship to have more or less signature -- working engines, shields, recharging weapons, cloak, etc. Finally, ECM/ECCM effects simply meaning that some objects and things lower or raise your signature -- ECM/ECCM devices, Sensor/Anti-Sensor Bases, and Nebulas.
Now, with the current system, if you have a ship with high signature but are far away, you still might not be seen. If you have a ship with low signature but are close to someone, you still might be seen. Very simple system, but seems to work well.
My idea is to add new dynamics to it, where your fleet deployment
tactics, hiding spots, and other things modify your sensor abilities. Firstly, it would begin with a new concept called "Triangulation". In a nutshell, this means that there is an area of uncertainty where your enemy is -- the area of uncertainty being in the shape of a triangle. Only at longer distances does this come into play (say 2500gu+). So, say when you are just flying along 4000gu from the jump gate, you suddenly pick up something on your sensors. You see something like this:
"Uh oh!" you say. Well, better click on it to see what it is... Unfortunately for you, the second new concept comes in here as well -- called "Recognition". The idea is that, at this long range of 4000gu, your sensors aren't good enough to know exactly what the ship is yet! Instead of just clicking on whatever it is (omnisciently, we'll say its a UGTO Battle Dread), you have to get closer to find out. However, because this target is big (the details of detecting and recognizing later), you know this much about it:
Firstly, this is an explanation of how the target box (bottom right box of your screen in DS) would look like:
Target - This is what you know it is, and the player name. For now, it is unknown. Full information on this would look more like, "Target - UGTO Battle Dread, [Admin]Faustus"
Range - The estimated range of the target. Since there is a triangle,
it would display what the center of the triagle would be along with the "~" sign (~ = approximately). Full information on this target would look more like, "Range - 4012.21gu".
Number of Contacts - This applies only to those ships at long range which are in the triangular area. It displays how many enemy targets have been detected in the triangular area. Simple.
Average Contact Size - This shows the average size of the ships that have been detected. For example, had you detected a Scout, it would read "Very Small". Transports, Engineers, etc. would read "Small". Frigates and Destroyers would read "Medium." Cruisers and Dreads would read "Large". And, finally, Stations would read "Very Large". Basically, it gives you an idea what you might be jumping if you decide to. Eventually, your sensors will detect the specific class of the ship, "Dreadnought", "Transport", "Destroyer", whatever.
Type - This is a reading of what the ship's alignment toward you is. There are 4 types -- Hostile, Friendly, Neutral, and Unknown. "Hostile" means, obviously, hostile. "Friendly" means its in your faction. "Neutral" means its not hostile, but not in your faction. "Unknown" means your sensors don't know yet.
Bear with me now, if that was a little unclear, it will hopefully get a little more clear soon!
Alright, so you see this target, and you decide to get in a little closer and find a little more about it. Luckily, Fautus is off coding, and his ship is just sitting there doing nothing. So, you close in 1000gu on your target and:
You now know a little better where the ship is -- the triangle is smaller. And now you see that your target is Hostile. Thats handy... you know that you don't want to turn off your shields and jump 3gu away from it (even if you DID know where it was). But since you are defending your home system, you decide you want to try to kill it, but it IS large, and you don't want to fly into something you can't take on, so you close in to 1000gu and:
You notice a number of changes. Firstly, you have a direct contact with the enemy - no longer is it in the triangular area. Also, you notice the contact size now lists "Dreadnought". Handy, since you are flying a Minelayer Assault Cruiser. It's lack of maneuverability will kill itself. Bwaha! You close in on conventional drives:
Well, now you know what it is, and what its status is. You go in for the kill, and since poor Faustus is away coding, you kill the maker of Darkspace. Congratulations.
That's pretty much the new idea, implemented. I'm not going to go into deep specifics on how the system works, since it probably won't be taken anyway. Though if this has any chance of going through at all, I have some ideas on how things will work.
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Fatal Green
Cadet
Joined: July 02, 2003
Posts: 72
From: California
| Posted: 2003-09-21 22:53
Sounds absolutely fantastic. Will make the game a lot more realistic if it is implemented. Also great job on the explanations and pics to go along with it Max.
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Tellaris
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: April 30, 2002
Posts: 830
From: Land of Chocolate
| Posted: 2003-09-21 23:33
Here is something else that I thought of when you said "Triangulation"
What I was thinking is that you would need 2 or more ships, at different locations to get an accurate location on the enemy ship.
I think I have a nice little analogy...
Think of how an Epicenter is found after an earthquake. To find the epicenter, you need at least 3 seismic stations to determin the apporximate location. While this would not work so well with your idea, what could be done, is to make the area of triangulation smaller. So the more ships you have nearby the target, the more accurate the sensors in finding the target.
As for the part about not knowing its friendly? I don't think that'll ever happen.
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Daylight \"The Beginning\"
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 24, 2002
Posts: 608
From: Oregon, USA
| Posted: 2003-09-22 00:11
I like this idea. friendlies and enemies should both be unknown unless grouped or close enough to get a fix on...Also...at long range. the ship should be more of an unknown. location is generalized in that its in
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direction and between 4000 and 5000 gu. More ships grouped means better info...
This would also give grouping a real purpose.
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Strom"DaBum"Moon
Cadet
ExtraTerrestrial Space Bums
Joined: September 29, 2002
Posts: 419
From: 29.740456 X -095.500764
| Posted: 2003-09-22 00:18
I like it. The idea is good but it needs polish. Also with our current cloaking system K'Luth would be very, very hard to find. It will be harder to target ship's in general on both sides. It will also make smaller ships more usefull in the stated roles. Making beacons and scouts all the more usefull.
It could also be combined with some new tech, like afore mentioned senor bouys. I don't rember the post and it was a while back so i can't give credit to who ever wrote it. They could work like current mines , single nouns and on a timer. Thus allowing a single ship to use the sytem like a picket line of sorts.
Prehaps limiting the larger ship's range to what is current in live and increassing small ships range in scale. I think that would help kill a few problems in one ahot. 
Anyway as feel free to reply.
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abyss
Cadet
BIOnics Industry Syndicate
Joined: June 05, 2002
Posts: 172
From: Portugal
| Posted: 2003-09-22 01:20
I especially like the "Average Contact size". If you are in a station, would be good to have a couple scouts arround you to cover your sizer reading.
The only point I dislike is the Friendly/enemy system. Id say, if your Unkown friend uses comunications, you know all of a sudden all details from him. more you expand your sensor capability and make a combined one. Thats reminds me, would be great to have something like Fog of War in this game.
Anyway, excelent Idea max
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P:@41963
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Axianda The Royal
Fleet Admiral
Terra Squadron
Joined: November 20, 2001
Posts: 4273
From: Axianda
| Posted: 2003-09-22 01:37
NICE.
i posted this idea a long time ago but your pictures realy worked out nicely.
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2003-09-22 07:54
I definitely like it.
Few ideas:
1 - You can tell what ship it is, but can't tell what CLASS it is until it opens fire. If you see an ICC Cruiser flying around, you won't know whether it's an AC or an Interdictor until it starts shooting (or activates its Jump Disruptor).
2 - Scanners will allow you to get more information from farther away.
3 - ECM will be the inverse, decreasing the information an enemy can get at a given distance.
4 - ECCM will be ONLY to counter enemy ECM. It will not affect friendly ships, nor will it affect how they see you. It just allows you to partially negate their ECM. Ex. - Enemy ship has 1 ECM running, you have 1 ECCM running. You can negate a certain % of his ECM, but you still suffer some jamming.
5 - The only EW device detectable by an enemy ship is the Scanner. ECM and ECCM cannot be directly detected, but you could know the enemy is using ECM if you get less information back than you normally would at a given distance.
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Max Kepler
Fleet Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: March 08, 2002
Posts: 589
From: ICS Victory
| Posted: 2003-09-22 17:56
Alright... I just gave the overall system... as for the mechanics of it... that gets into a little more detail. It appears as though everyone got the gist of it, so I will continue.
Remember when I mentioned the things that define whether we can detect ships in the current system? Well, this comes into more play here…
Signature – This is the primary role of the current system, as it will be a major factor here. In the case of triangulation, signature plays the role of getting a contact with the enemy, more than being able to recognize it. A ship with high sig will be detectable from long range (with a large triangle), and more likely to get a strong fix on it at closer range. It plays a small role in recognition. Remember, this combines: Ship Size and Components. A cloaked ship should gain a considerable advantage here as well (EG: A Kluth ship uncloaked at 2000gu may have a small triangle, but a ship cloaked at 1000gu will have the same size of a triangle)
Distance – This is the primary factor in recognition. A closer ship will be more easily recognized. Again, sig plays a small role here (at large values, it will make a difference). One thing, however, is that ECM/ECCM effects should be more noticeable in this area, rather than sig. As it works today, jamming is like lighting up a Christmas tree. You know there is jamming, but you can’t exactly tell what is in the jamming. ECM should put a considerable dampening effect in recognition, and less so on actual detection. Also, the cloak will play a huge role here. A cloaked ship will be much harder to get the specifics on than an uncloaked.
Now, to address the replies:
Green – Thanks 
Baikon – Indeed. More ships directly translate into better sensor resolution in the recognition department. More ships do translate into better detection, as well, but position will be a BIG factor. 3 ships right next to each other will do virtually nothing. 3 ships spread around the target in a triangle will hugely effect detecting the target, or at least shrinking that triangle. You are 100% correct.
Daylight – Sounds right.
Stromberg – As with any idea, it could use polishing . And you are right – scouts, beacons, and frigates will become even more important than they are now, which is something DS could use! New tech is also a good idea – I was thinking about suggesting a “Scanner Base” for planets that would allow planets to aid in detection.
Abyss – You address an important point with the Average Contact system. A Station might have scouts around it, but that doesn’t mean the scouts are detectable! You’d need a number of ships that are detectable to hide a station’s size… like 2-3 Destroyers. Even then, the average size might read “Large”.
You address yet another important point with Unknown classified friendlies. You may dislike it, but I like it. It makes communication more of an important part. “Is that you, Bill, 2000gu from me?” “Yeah, that’s me… but I’m picking up someone else too…” “Really? I’m not… HELP!”
Axianda – Thanks
Jimbo –
1- I’d think you’d be able to detect the class, at least at close range. If not, then I’d probably leave it up to the player to figure it out, adding more skill to the game 
2- Scanners will aid a lot, yes. And their effectiveness will probably decrease with more numbers, like the Shield Generator. 100% --> 150% --> 175% and so on.
3- I mentioned ECM above, and like you imply, it will primarily decrease recognition more than detection (though it still probably should effect sig a little)
4- Interesting idea concerning the ECCM. I like it and approve it
5- Righto. Scanner would be kinda like a “ping” in current submarine warfare
Also, a few more notes:
-Nebulas would be a huge thing. Not only would detection go down a lot, but recognition would too.
-Planets would leave a “Sensor Shadow” in their wake, say, 300gu-400gu from their surface. It would effectively block scanning in that direction. You could hide on the other side of a planet from an enemy, but you wouldn’t necessarily be able to detect him afterwards, either… unless, say, you built a Scanner Base on the planet This would also increase the usefulness of Gas Giants and Inferno planets in the game (“where did THAT fleet come from!?!”) Like so:
-Stars should have a Nebula-like effect close to its destroy-ship point, say, 500-800gu. This effect would probably be 1-way only… the ships near the star would not suffer sensor effects! Using stars to stage attacks would be very risky, but if you had a group of veteran players, you could really use it to your advantage.
If any part of that was at all unclear, just say so, and I'll try to formulate a more understandable post!
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[ This Message was edited by: Max Kepler on 2003-09-22 18:10 ]
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-Baron Von Virtu
Cadet
Joined: December 21, 2002
Posts: 411
| Posted: 2003-09-22 18:09
Excellent idea, this is something I'd pray to see in Darkspace.
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Lupino
Cadet
Joined: March 23, 2002
Posts: 359
| Posted: 2003-09-22 18:48
I say we storm Faustus' house and demand he add these features to the game right away!
Damn fine work, I've got a similar idea rolling 'round in my head for awhile, but never could find the words for it.
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Gideon
Cadet
Joined: September 14, 2001
Posts: 4604
From: Oregon, USA
| Posted: 2003-09-22 20:43
Lets let Faustus finish the current patch, then we can go on to the new fog of war system.
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Ceridan
Cadet
Joined: May 24, 2003
Posts: 608
From: Canada
| Posted: 2003-09-22 22:25
Quote:
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On 2003-09-22 00:11, Daylight (The Begining) wrote:
I like this idea. friendlies and enemies should both be unknown unless grouped or close enough to get a fix on...Also...at long range. the ship should be more of an unknown. location is generalized in that its in
/l
/ l
l
l
direction and between 4000 and 5000 gu. More ships grouped means better info...
This would also give grouping a real purpose.
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Or in the same fleet.(Cause every fleet member should know where the other members are )
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Koda
Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: August 29, 2002
Posts: 1384
| Posted: 2003-09-23 02:14
Great Idea!
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Sandals
Fleet Admiral
Agents
Joined: January 21, 2002
Posts: 2001
From: Redmond,WA,USA
| Posted: 2003-09-23 04:10
I think huge (dreadnought, station) targets should benefit less from a "sensor shadow."
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