| Author |
an ambitious idea, but.. |
Deleted
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|  Posted: 2003-08-21 16:06
After throwing my rattle out of the pram at the very idea of a.i. assisted player balance in mv, I reset my stats and vowed to never play again.
But today an idea hit me that made me think, ‘ouch, now that’d kool’.
The very thought of having the idea implemented was enough to make me rethink my decision to leave what is, in reality, a truly awesome game that owes as much to its godlike programmer and dev team as it does to its skilful players and community.
I believe if implemented correctly into the game, it would not only fix issues of player imbalance and find a proper use for ai, but would also make darkspace truly genre breaking.
It needs one prerequisite in order to make it feasible and that is ‘field promotions’.
The theory goes if u can’t balance player numbers then u balance firepower. For instance, if your side consisted of captains and the nme side were all FAs, then some ppl on your side would be promoted to ‘acting FA’.
It would encourage up keep of systems at the centre of mv because ppl would need to modify ‘on the fly’ if they were promoted in the heat of battle.
Obviously the exact maths involved in balancing of the field promotion system will have to be sorted out but, once done, I think it would go along way toward sorting out balance. (It should be said that the amount of promotions should never be so extreme as to make a mockery of the pres system.)
But it doesn’t go all the way. What if u are the lone ship defending your system against a hoard of dreads and stations? No amount of field promoting would work then, would it?
Well then u get promoted to acting Fleet Marshal and get to control your factions one and only Mothership, with complete strategic control of an a.i. fleet.
With some minor additions to the gui just for the mothership(i.e. drag-box selection, control + left click target etc), plus some coding for fleet formations and tactics(aggressive/evasive/defensive) u have a Homeworld type interface and a fleet more than capable of taking on an overwhelming nme.
Some features I thought would be needed are as follows;
· The maximum amount of ships in your fleet would be directly linked to the number and make up of nme.
· Ships up to destroyer can be built mothership and up to cruiser can be ordered from a shipyard. Ships should have a build time so the nme has a chance to destroy your fleet
· It could only build unmoded ships, but maybe have a few ships that can be (flagships if u want), maybe the ships from your garage
· New research options can be made available. (10kgu long range sensor array for example)
· The mothership itself is supposed to stay in deep space, taking it into combat and losing it should result in a temporary demotion to commander for a few days. It is after all a vastly expensive ship that is only used v. rarely.
· Prestige on kills should be max in order to create incentive (if any is needed) to defend a system on your own
· Also, building remotely would be fairly near full. The mothership has a direct command link to the colony hub if u like, and gets the pres for remote building.
· Supply pres might not be a good idea as this could be exploited.
· U need not be alone to control the mothership, with sufficient numbers of nme , u could have dreads etc fly beside your fleet. The ratios of nme/friendly ships needed to create a fleet marshal promotion can be whatever ppl decide it should be, so long as it is balanced.
· However, it should go to the person with the highest pres IF they want it. On the other hand tho, it should also be available to a midshipman if he is alone.
Well, u get the idea. I think a mothership would add so much in terms and tactics and gameplay as to make darkspace the best game in the world.
There u have it then. Flame me if u hate the idea, drool at the thought of wiping out a fleet of dreads with your ai dessies and cruisers flying in formation if u like it.
(Edited to remove the idea of field demotions, works well without it and wouldn't of been popular (even i didnt like it really:))
[ This Message was edited by: alpha kappa on 2003-08-21 17:15 ]
[ This Message was edited by: alpha kappa on 2003-08-21 17:27 ]
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Kirby
Midshipman
Joined: January 01, 2003
Posts: 34
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2003-08-21 16:20
sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
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Imaginary Shifty
Midshipman
Joined: June 02, 2003
Posts: 204
From: Estonia
| Posted: 2003-08-21 16:21
since im an FA i want my friggin station and noone/nothing is going to take that away from me because of "balance"
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g0ds s0ldier
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: October 24, 2002
Posts: 954
| Posted: 2003-08-21 16:26
AI Fleets isnt the answer to balance at all...
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Pitch Black
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Pope
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 11, 2002
Posts: 2449
From: World of tomorrow
| Posted: 2003-08-21 16:29
have you even looked at the rank requirements for the main combat ships?
drainer: 1lt
AC: captain
asslt dessie: 1lt
....
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Deleted
Fleet Admiral
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| Posted: 2003-08-21 16:45
Quote:
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On 2003-08-21 16:26, g0ds s0ldier wrote:
AI Fleets isnt the answer to balance at all...
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I agree. AI eventually becomes boring and predictable to play agaisnt and will probably get exploited in some way.
When I say ai controlled by the mothership I mean it in the simplist of senses. U would tell your ships what to shot at, where to jump to and how to act, the ai would just deal with the nitty-gritty of controlling the craft in combat. It means playing agaisnt the fleet of a mothership will be a challange not the shoot-fest playing ai turns into.
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Deleted
Fleet Admiral
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| Posted: 2003-08-21 16:49
Quote:
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On 2003-08-21 16:29, sono wrote:
have you even looked at the rank requirements for the main combat ships?
drainer: 1lt
AC: captain
asslt dessie: 1lt
....
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Its was an ad-hoc way of incorparating a mothership, so yah, it wouldnt work too well.
How about I revise it and say that ANY fleet that is heavily outgunned can get a mothership to help defend a system. The person with the highest pres gets first refusals or can pass it on to someone else if need be.
[ This Message was edited by: alpha kappa on 2003-08-21 16:52 ]
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g0ds s0ldier
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: October 24, 2002
Posts: 954
| Posted: 2003-08-21 16:51
im not bashing your idea or anything, but i just dont think ANYTHING other then planet trannies should be AI, if AI Fleets were left in the game then it should be able to be played offline, AI fleets will just big one big Combat Pres Farm....im strongly against the creation of AI Fleets.
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c0ld
Midshipman
Joined: June 24, 2003
Posts: 342
From: UK
| Posted: 2003-08-22 01:53
g0d's, you've missed the point entirely, here wear this a go sit in the corner.
/me hands g0d's a dunce cap
If u need help visualising it, imagine the mothership from homeworld accidently /connects to lalande and comes face to face with several EADs.
Send out some extractors to gather resourses and get researchining the cruiser:)
It is the fusion of 2 different genre's that could help balance mv.
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g0ds s0ldier
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: October 24, 2002
Posts: 954
| Posted: 2003-08-22 02:21
Thats not balance, thats changing the game, isnt it?
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Barthezzz
Fleet Admiral
Joined: May 31, 2001
Posts: 5630
From: The Netherlands
| Posted: 2003-08-22 04:17
I agree with G0ds, Any and All Faction combat Ships should be player Piloted.
And No, Orders given by Players do not count.
The Only AI I want to see in Game are Trannies and aliens, and id even like to see the Trade System back so Players can replace the trannies.
That only Leaves AI Gaifens, EE's and CE's.
Also, what will prevent a n00b from becoming the Marshal thingie and Crash Landing the Carrier On Mycopia?
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Deleted
Fleet Admiral
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| Posted: 2003-08-23 06:14
The problem, as I see it, that exists in mv, apart from slight balance issues between the different factions tech, is the huge player imbalance. As noted by Lith in his ‘a few good icc’ post, some enjoyable battles are ruined when one side becomes far too strong to handle. Tactics of the undermanned side tend to resort to sitting in deep space and using dirty tricks to frustrate the enemy advance, because actually trying to fight the enemy would be a waste of time and prestige.
So what are the options for addressing the imbalance:
Balance faction player numbers
As done in the FA server
This would be practically impossible to implement in mv, so scratch it from the list
Balance the fleets
By means of restricting number of players in a fleet, number of fleets in a faction or numbers of FAs in a fleet
This would be unpopular. Players like the fleet they are in and the faction they play for. It would also not filter down to a balance per system level.
Balance players in a system
I hear the uproar already
Use AI fleets to balance numbers
I personally hate the idea, as do others. I’ll explain my reasons;
· AI fleets, no matter how well they are programmed, are predictable and easy to fight. Any player of moderate skill can learn their pre-programmed tactics and out smart them, they on the other hand will never change or adapt. I get bored of playing AI, which is why I play massively multiplayer games.
· AI spawn triggers will get exploited
· Group tactics will tend to revolve around what the AI is doing, i.e. ‘lets attack so-and-so will the AI keeps the most of the enemy busy’ or ‘leave the AI to deal with them while we go cap another system.’
· We will end up fighting AI 80% of the time, which is a waste of my subscription money frankly.
There are more reasons that I can’t think of off the top of my head, but these are enough imo. The only place for AI in the game is monsters, transports and possibly and AI alien faction, with its own home systems that you could have go at if no-one else was in mv.
So, excluding all the above, the only way I can see to fix the problem is to,
Introduce the mothership
I should apologize for calling the fleet of a mothership ‘AI’. Anyone who has played Homeworld will know that there is no AI involved, if you get killed it is because of the other persons skill, not because of AI.
The mothership can be used to balance a battle only when there is significant imbalance that would otherwise ruin it and it would stop systems being walked over.
With other suitable restrictions, like only to be used in defence of systems near the home system and to be relegated to support functions and eventually retired as balance is reacquired, it would be a rare treat to see a mothership.
Quote:
| Thats not balance, thats changing the game, isnt it? |
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On the rare occasions it is used, yes. But I prefer to see it as increasing the content, which is surely a good thing. You have said elsewhere that you have done just about everything in the game, so wouldn't a mothership be something new to try.
Quote:
| Also, what will prevent a n00b from becoming the Marshal thingie and Crash Landing the Carrier On Mycopia? |
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Nothing whatsoever, he would lose a suitable amount of pres and get demoted for a few days tho. Behind the scenes a new mothership is built and will be ready for service next time.
After saying all this tho, I know next to nothing about programming and changing the gui and adding all the nessecary commands into the game 'on-the-fly' sounds complicated even to me. Whether it is possible only the mighty F would know.
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