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Potential planetary interdictor changes! |
Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
|  Posted: 2014-02-19 21:57
Hi folks,
We've been deliberating internally over the state of planets and the state of "camp here until they come" or "we can't go in otherwise we'll die".
We attribute a lot of it to the current state of planetary interdictors, defenders are naturally going to want to protect their planet, but attackers don't want to risk too much by not being able to jump for a 1000 radius around a planet. This ends up meaning that defenders have an increased want to camp at planets, and attackers have a decreased want to assault them.
We've had a few internal solutions, but we've come up with one that we think a lot of people will like, and sounds a bit like the following:
Ships can now jump in and out of planetary interdictors
We may or may not decrease JD charge time.
All ships jumping through interdictors are slowed to 20% of their jump speed (for a Tachyon drive that would be 440 gu/s, and the 20% is subject to change).
Friendly and enemy ships would be effected equally.
Please give us your feedback on the proposed changes so we can guage where to head with this in a direction that all players will be happy with.
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Hashtag
Admiral
Joined: December 06, 2013
Posts: 1
| Posted: 2014-02-19 23:44
Yes, please implement this. Missile/carrier fights are as fun as watching paint dry. This would defiantly clear the way for cruisers/dreads to jump into hostile territory and engage missile dreads/stations/carriers without fear of being unable to disengage.
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jimjimjaroo
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 06, 2009
Posts: 308
From: Michigan, USA
| Posted: 2014-02-20 07:08
I personally think players (well, ships in general) should be more punished than that. I'm thinking about 40% to 60%, not of a total increase but acting as the total slow down. Why so high? Well, even though the complete stop is annoying/frustrating, I still kinda like it. (although your points are reasonable, and I agree with them) It adds a challenge to me. I'll have to see this stuff in beta before I'm completely going for my idea because I have no idea how this would "feel" when I'm flying a ship. (especially in anything bigger than a cruiser) I do think that the 20% is a great start though.
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Chewy Squirrel
Chief Marshal
Joined: January 27, 2003
Posts: 304
From: NYC
| Posted: 2014-02-20 07:24
I understand and agree with the premise behind dictor changes but I don't understand the implementation. Unless I am misunderstanding something here this would make dictors completely worthless.
Worst case scenario someone is jumping through 2000gu worth of dictor. At 440 GU/s that would take ~4.5 seconds. If you are point jumping a defender that's 1000gu, worst case at ~2.25 seconds. And you can't really hit someone in a jump anyway, so a dictor would really provide no defensive advantage.
This would also make planetary defences even more pathetic than they already are. A bomber destroyer or a tranny rush would be nearly unstoppable. Also running away would be much much harder because people will already chase you if you are heavily damaged into a planetary interdictor. With this change they are almost guaranteed to point jump you.
I see that there might need to be a change but this one seems a bit harsh. Maybe also increase JD charge time by 100% or so. Or make it so you can jump away but not in.
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2014-02-20 09:34
I would like to see bits of many things thrown into the new dictor, namely
ships can jump in and out
20% jump speed inside field
decreased JD recharge rate in field (-25% ~ -40%)
larger field radius (1200~1500 GU)
and please increase the workers needed to 3 or more.
whatever this new dictor becomes, it'll make defending, and to some part attacking a planet riskier. the team which is significantly weaker will be brutally destroyed in the dictor.
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Orkan [OO-XII]
Grand Admiral
The Myrmidon Legion
Joined: April 22, 2010
Posts: 201
From: A Point Perfectly Computed Yet Never Repeating
| Posted: 2014-02-20 18:04
Personally I like the Interdictor fields the way they are.
Any change which slows a ship other than disabling JD should be known as a gravity well and be a different, type of planet defense.
Perhaps the cost of true Interdictors in worker terms and resources and perhaps power should be increased if a change is inevitable but still make it so thata Dico and shipyard together with antisensor/sensor bases can still be used effectively on planets if that was to be their setup.
By all means bring variety to the field, I am really impressed with the different platform varients that came out with this patch and the different strategies that they open up.
Make Gravity Well Generators: which as you propose, slow ships and their jumps down.
Keep Interdictors but make them more costly so that only a few key planets can be able to maintain them
Have Targetting computer jammer installations, as with command auras, only planet wide, make these more viable than a real heavy duty Dictor.
All of the command auras are great ideas and could be adapted as structures to give bonuses to planets.
In my opinion keep the Interdictor and don't change its mechanics. Just change the ability for so many to be in the MV at a time, mainly for defending the Main Shipyard in a system or so.
If taking down Dicos is a problem with more players and obviously bombs get PD'd then how about a new type of Planetary Assault 'Cannon' (or fast falling cluster bomb barrage) which damages structures and cannot be PD'd for equipping on Bomber ships instead of Bombs. That is the only way I can think of to take out a Dico which is being guarded by multiple players/platforms. Then people would shield the dico with their ships and building on the equator would be a viable option again. Make it damage structures greatly and only do half damage to ships, activate-able only around planets and with only 500 or so range. Details as ever up to you.
How about an idea I pitched a long time ago, A mobile antidictor - like the old interdictor ships but with the reverse effect. One of these means ships can jump into and out of a projected field 250 gu around it which cancels out interdictor fileds when it enters one. These would be at the vanguard of any Planetary Dictor rush. What do you think, so wacky that it might just work?
Just some Ideas.
The problem is that lots of defending players mean no attacking bombs can be effective which means no counter to the dico, which is why you need another way to bring it down. Lack of players means players don't employ specialised e-war to run alongside their bombers to totally mask their bombs' signature from enemy PD.
Again this game needs more players not a change in what a true Dictor is. I don't think making a current Dico into a gravity well generator is a good idea. Bring in variety and up the cost of Dicos(if you have to) so only a few planets per system can run them.
[edit]
Also I feel people defend at planets for so many reasons, changing Dicos won't change anything other than make it easier for an outnumbering team to rush the defenders.
People defend at planets because:
Planets block enemy Fire
Planets repair your ship
Planets reload you
Planets enable you to swap your ship and pursue a different strategy
Planets block jumps through them
Planets can have anti sensors which make your platforms and you untargettable, which force the enemy to attack from up close
Planets ARE the target of capture
oh yes and coz Planets have Dicos ; )
I do not believe any of the immediately above needs changing. Even if Dicos were completely removed people would still gather and defend at planets because that is what matters and because of all the advantages listed above.
Even if planets were nothing but barren rocks people would still defend there because the planet itself guards your back and shields you from enemy fire to a degree.
Planets are oases of hope in a cold, unforgiving MV.
Darkspace needs to Promote this great game as hard as they can - Like I said above, Planets NEED players! : )
[ This Message was edited by: Orkan [OO-XII] on 2014-02-20 21:47 ]
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Jabberwocky
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: September 01, 2002
Posts: 45
| Posted: 2014-02-21 04:44
I personally think this will cause more problems than it solves.
Dictors are the only useful defensive tool that planets have and can provide a more level playing field agaainst larger numbers. I predict a large increase in tranny rushing planets and more logouts in the face of numerical superiority. Dictors are a safe zone that the game needs to function properly.
I would suggest a better alternative (if possible code-wise) would be to make dictors one way. Ships are stopped jumping in but allowed to jump out. This would give the defender a chance to actually defend while giving attackers comfort that they can safely retreat.
An extended recharge time would probably work but you may as well leave dictors alone then, because it wont change what you want it to change.
Alternatively if you remove dictors (which is what you are proposing. Slowing a ship down to 400 odd gu wouldn't be any different than if you let them pass through at full speed) you would need to boost planet def alot to compensate as a deterrent to enter defended space.
My two cents!
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Valiant Wolf
Admiral
Joined: March 20, 2010
Posts: 15
| Posted: 2014-02-21 08:03
I can't help but side with Orkan on this one.
Dictors in their current iteration are required when the teams are imbalanced to prevent one faction just steamrolling without any form of resistance; they hold any enemies with the balls to try and attack in range of the defenders' guns long enough for their damage to be meaningful, and they can be used to cut off line-of-sight from gates to other planetary clusters to slow the advance of attackers.
Again, regurgitating what Orkan said, people are going to cluster around planets regardless of whether these changes go through in their current state. Planets are used to provide physical cover and provide a significant boost to in-combat resupply and ewar that is not dependant on other players. Okay, so I get it that you're strongly trying to promote teamwork, but for those players that are faction locked and find themselves getting rushed by an enemy force two to four times larger than their current player count, hardly any counter-play currently exists, and by whacking dictors with the nerf bat you're making that toybox of counter-play almost non-existant.
I'd also like to propose two alternative solutions:
First off, the gravity well idea appeals a lot to me and I can see it working accompanied with an increase in resource demand for the current dictors. Maybe have the gravity well replace all current dictors and have the current iteration of the dictor be an upgrade to it, requiring more power and more workers. 20% speed is still way too fast though; something along the lines of 4% gives defenders:
> 25 seconds to respond to anyone passing through the full 2000gu of dictor (and the planet itself),
> 12.5 seconds to respond to anyone trying to tunnel to or escape from the centre of the planet,
> 6.25 seconds to respond to anyone trying to jump in our out at a range of 500gu from the planet, which sounds pretty reasonable to me considering they will still be travelling at 88gu/s and will remain very hard to hit for the duration.
My second and much more radical idea would be to introduce more physical cover in the form of large asteroid clusters and asteroid bases. These would be placed in systems just off the normal jump routes or a significant distance from planetary clusters. They would be locked to neutral and provide repairs and resupply to nearby ships regardless of faction...
On second thought, making a new thread with my second suggestion sounds like a better idea to prevent digression.
Thanks for your time,
~Wolf
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2014-02-21 11:45
As other people have pointed out the current planetary Interdictors are a necessary tool for outnumbered defenders. I'm not sure what Interdictors just lowering jump speed is going to accomplish, you still wouldn't be able to shoot people who are jumping unless they're coming directly at you and there's no time to lay mines in their path because they're still going too fast. Unless it's lowered to the point where you actually CAN shoot people while they're jumping and the JD gadgets themselves are changed so they deactivate if the ship is damaged while jumping.
If it was me I'd change it to something that gives a penalty to speed, maneuverability, JD and cloak cooldown of enemies. That way if the attackers choose to bypass the usual fighter/missile spam standoff they can jump right into the defenders' faces, but numerical superiority wouldn't necessarily be the order of the day if the defenders happen to be more organized.
[ This Message was edited by: Talien on 2014-02-21 11:47 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2014-02-21 12:45
Quote:
On 2014-02-21 11:45, Talien wrote:
As other people have pointed out the current planetary Interdictors are a necessary tool for outnumbered defenders. I'm not sure what Interdictors just lowering jump speed is going to accomplish, you still wouldn't be able to shoot people who are jumping unless they're coming directly at you and there's no time to lay mines in their path because they're still going too fast. Unless it's lowered to the point where you actually CAN shoot people while they're jumping and the JD gadgets themselves are changed so they deactivate if the ship is damaged while jumping.
If it was me I'd change it to something that gives a penalty to speed, maneuverability, JD and cloak cooldown of enemies. That way if the attackers choose to bypass the usual fighter/missile spam standoff they can jump right into the defenders' faces, but numerical superiority wouldn't necessarily be the order of the day if the defenders happen to be more organized.
[ This Message was edited by: Talien on 2014-02-21 11:47 ]
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The issue for me is that interdictors in their current form make certain ships and layouts way better than others, in some ways making it really easy for one or two people defend entire clusters.
"More organized" shouldn't mean one guy in one ship can hold off an army.
Interdictors make it very risky to jump in, even if you have the advantage because each individual knows that any one of them will probably have to die for no other reason than they could not jump away. And thats not very fun. This is why the interdictor is targeted first anyways.
The above problems mean that when numbers are even, its impossible to get a real engagement going because absolutely no one wants to jump in and risk it.
I think that if being outnumbered is a constant issue, we should implement something seperately to balance numbers. But in cases where all things are equal, actual combat around the planet would be nice without guaranteed death. Its not like it accomplishes anything but make people log off.
So I think ships should be able to jump in and out, and I think everyone should be effected. But the dictor should still be effective, so I think ships jumping in and out would have to be slowed down a really great amount (something like 40gu/sec) to be really effective.
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Walrus of Apathy
Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: August 07, 2005
Posts: 466
From: Dorans Basement
| Posted: 2014-02-21 14:02
I'd like to remind people that the timer for jumps assumes going the same speed the whole trip, and if any leg of that trip is slowed down the timer won't reflect that. This means that any jumps flying through a "Slow Down" style interdictor will always fall short of their intended destination, and will will fall more short the farther through the interdictor it gets slowed down in it has to go in. This also makes the ship burn though MUCH more fuel to get the same distance.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2014-02-21 15:45
Quote:
On 2014-02-21 12:45, Ent wrote:
The issue for me is that interdictors in their current form make certain ships and layouts way better than others, in some ways making it really easy for one or two people defend entire clusters.
"More organized" shouldn't mean one guy in one ship can hold off an army.
Interdictors make it very risky to jump in, even if you have the advantage because each individual knows that any one of them will probably have to die for no other reason than they could not jump away. And thats not very fun. This is why the interdictor is targeted first anyways.
The above problems mean that when numbers are even, its impossible to get a real engagement going because absolutely no one wants to jump in and risk it.
I think that if being outnumbered is a constant issue, we should implement something seperately to balance numbers. But in cases where all things are equal, actual combat around the planet would be nice without guaranteed death. Its not like it accomplishes anything but make people log off.
So I think ships should be able to jump in and out, and I think everyone should be effected. But the dictor should still be effective, so I think ships jumping in and out would have to be slowed down a really great amount (something like 40gu/sec) to be really effective.
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Oh I agree, in some situations the current Interdictors can be more of a hindrance than a help, but with something like this you end up with different problems and the same result. People wouldn't bother defending anymore because the other guy can just point jump and take them out and you'd still end up with people logging out just because they're outnumbered and have no way to put up any kind of effective resistance.
But really, if one guy is holding off an army they're either getting lots of AI support, are really good, the other team is REALLY bad, or maybe a combination of the three. There's no reason I can think of where one person in one ship could defend against an entire fleet unless the attackers are doing something silly like following as he jumps from planet to planet and not bothering to cap the planets he's not sitting at.
I've always been very much in favor of team balancing but something like that in DS would be tricky. The obvious thing would be to just have unfleeted players funneled into whichever side is outnumbered the most when they log in like it is in scen, but we already know a lot of people wouldn't enjoy being forced into a particular faction if they logged in planning to play another, especially if they're dumped into a situation like being outnumbered 5 to 1 with no SY left in Sag. Of course, now that everyone has faction specific garage slots maybe fleets could be given an option to opt into a balancing system.
Quote:
On 2014-02-21 14:02, Walrus of Apathy wrote:
I'd like to remind people that the timer for jumps assumes going the same speed the whole trip, and if any leg of that trip is slowed down the timer won't reflect that. This means that any jumps flying through a "Slow Down" style interdictor will always fall short of their intended destination, and will will fall more short the farther through the interdictor it gets slowed down in it has to go in. This also makes the ship burn though MUCH more fuel to get the same distance.
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Sounds like that would make it harder to escape by jumping through, but wouldn't really do much for people trying to defend a planet against a larger number of enemies. I suppose that would also screw over someone in a Dreadnought or Station that accidentally jumps into one of these on their way to a gate or something.
Of course, if you go with this idea it might be good to add a shipboard version as an option for Command gadgets.
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Alex3huey
Fleet Admiral
Joined: July 31, 2010
Posts: 13
| Posted: 2014-02-21 16:00
I like Orkan's idea when it comes to the dictors, I wouldn't mind seeing a building that could do that, but I don't think taking away the dictor's ability to stop ships from jumping would be a good idea.
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Chewy Squirrel
Chief Marshal
Joined: January 27, 2003
Posts: 304
From: NYC
| Posted: 2014-02-21 22:44
Quote:
On 2014-02-21 14:02, Walrus of Apathy wrote:
I'd like to remind people that the timer for jumps assumes going the same speed the whole trip, and if any leg of that trip is slowed down the timer won't reflect that. This means that any jumps flying through a "Slow Down" style interdictor will always fall short of their intended destination, and will will fall more short the farther through the interdictor it gets slowed down in it has to go in. This also makes the ship burn though MUCH more fuel to get the same distance.
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Hmm that makes it much more interesting. However, I feel like it will be effective for a little bit until everyone masters this second kind of point jumping. All it is is just a manual jump adjustment just like people have been doing since the dawn of time to point jump.
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TroyMars
Chief Marshal
T-Roy! and Friends
Joined: July 05, 2005
Posts: 267
| Posted: 2014-02-22 12:30
Dictor field get stronger the closer you get to it. Almost 100% if you jump directly to the planet.
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