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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
|  Posted: 2005-05-27 13:15
They're debating a ban on smoking in bars & resturants and whatnot here in Philadelphia (like the one in New York), and its just irritated me so much I had to write one in to the Philadelphia Inquirer. Already sent it out, just thought you guys might like a peek or two. I don't think this violates the political policy, if it does feel free to lock & delete with my appologies.
Quote:
| “With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.” I first heard these words as a child watching Star Trek in the early 90’s. They have stuck with me all my life, and never have they seemed more profound than in these times in which we live, and never did I imagine that they would seem so violated in my own dear Philadelphia. I am talking about the impending ban on smoking, and the doorways it opens down the path of fascism and censorship. I work in a restaurant with a very active smoking section (known as the bar). I am one of the people that the politicians claim they are protecting, and I neither want nor need their protection. I choose to expose myself to the dangers; I choose to work in this environment. This is not a ban for our health, or a ban that the people want – even the non smokers I have talked to. This is about money, and about the next round of elections, and if it is passed, this ban will signal the first link. |
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NoPants2win
Cadet
Joined: February 23, 2002
Posts: 1275
From: Poorly ventilated paint storage facility.
| Posted: 2005-05-27 14:12
Profound, but I don't see the connection between banning smoking, and money. I'm needing clarification, who exactly do you see becoming filthy rich via a public smoking ban? Certainly not public officials.
There must always be a balance of personal freedoms when they effect other people. Now, there is certainly an argument that the attempt is horribly misguided, but in order to support the slippery slope argument, you're going to need something beyond the very vague implication that its about money. Im not saying that your position is wrong, Im just saying you're going to need something more then rhetoric here.
As a non smoker, I really don't care if people smoke in a bar, and I'm of the opinion that if second hand smoke is a concern to you, then you need not expose yourself to it, as it is a free (ish) country and you may work where you choose.
-editted for grammar
[ This Message was edited by: Pants{UGTO/KLUTH} on 2005-05-27 14:13 ]
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Bobamelius
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 2074
From: Ohio
| Posted: 2005-05-27 14:33
Um... I dunno about a ban on smoking causing this nation to descend into fascism and all that, but to me it just seems rather silly. Anyone can avoid being around smokers, and if you have to be around them for a while, it won't kill you.
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Tbone
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 21, 2001
Posts: 1756
From: Vancouver
| Posted: 2005-05-27 14:35
Quote:
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On 2005-05-27 14:33, Bobamelius wrote:
if you have to be around them for a while, it won't kill you.
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Some would say otherwise. I wouldn't, but some would.
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Thorium
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 05, 2004
Posts: 185
| Posted: 2005-05-27 15:16
it is noting new and more than likely it will pass... there are plenty of things that infringe on our basic rights...
one of my fav is the cop that asks if he can search your car for illegay wepons or contaban when he has you pulled over... if you say no it gives him cause to search because it seems you are hideing something... (ivasion of privicy)
it used to be that a cop could not look in your car if it was occupid on the road but now with the seat belt laws they can (ivasion of privicy)... this has also been used as an excuse to pull me over yet i ALWAYS where my belt... i also always where a black lether coat and my belt is blue... opon telling the cop this... his statment "well it blends in with the coat"... my statment "you mean to tell me that you cannt tell the difference between blue and black?" "i was in a car crash once". i was in the back seat with out a belt on". "that hurt like *you know* and ever since then i ALWAYS where a belt"... he let me go but of course with out the due respect that i deserve (though i was not nice to him ether so i guess we are even on that point)...
FBI flags users that check out books that may be used to conduct illegal activetys... and then uses that ifomation to help produce a profile when investigateing crimes (invasion of privicy)... the information cannt be used to prosicute you in a court of law but they still use it for profileing...
the biggest one... government computers monitor conversations be it internet or phone and have it scane for key words (illegal wire tap/invasion of privicy)...
it is the way of man... all through the ages people feel that civilization is degradeing all around then and feel that the only solution is to the problem is more control leading in the end to less freedom... and every time the people rise up and overthrow the oppression... form a new system or revise the system and the prosses starts all over again... what can i say we never learn and think that our time is one of a kind when in fact it is the same as the time before...
so the law will more than likely pass... sorry, it is just the way it is... dont mean to make it sound so bad even though it is bad... there is great potential in mankind to learn, grow and progress has been made... we are just not there yet...
edit...
sorry i think i killed the tread...
[ This Message was edited by: Thorium on 2005-05-27 15:17 ]
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NoPants2win
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Joined: February 23, 2002
Posts: 1275
From: Poorly ventilated paint storage facility.
| Posted: 2005-05-27 15:28
Quote:
| it is the way of man... all through the ages people feel that civilization is degradeing all around then and feel that the only solution is to the problem is more control leading in the end to less freedom... and every time the people rise up and overthrow the oppression... form a new system or revise the system and the prosses starts all over again... |
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Give me an example of that. Just one.
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
| Posted: 2005-05-27 15:35
I would gladly have elaborated but I'm limited to 200 words for the editorials.
Much of the city council is currently under investigation for the "Pay to play" scandal (where a lot of the politics & decisions regarding contracts and anything to do with unions & whatnot are decided by donations, nothing new but theres a lot of bookkeeping crap & all that... you can read about it in the philly online newspapers if you care to), and since then a lot of the council has taken a bunch of "moral stands" to show how virtuous they are, and a lot of other politicans (most notibly the mayor) are known to take large donations from lobby groups to sign various bills.
Bob, like the quote implies, all it takes is that first LITTLE liberty restricted to start the ball rolling (there are larger national issues that resemble this that need not be mentioned by name).
And I do think that it has a good chance of passing, if no other reason than because New York's passed, and god knows the philly bureaucracy is always looking to NY for examples instead of making its own damn mind up.
What pisses me off is that the late night smoking drinkers make up a good deal of the nighttime tipouts that we get. If they can't smoke inside, they'll have to go outside which means they're probably not gonna stay & drink as much.
Bleh, finish later, gotta run.
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Tael
2nd Rear Admiral
Palestar
Joined: July 03, 2002
Posts: 3697
From: San Francisco Bay Area
| Posted: 2005-05-27 15:41
This is a law in many parts of the country and thre are always people arguing on both sides of it...
One of the reasons for it isn't just non-smokers demanding it, but in deed the health of those working in these locations. Weither or not they care or want it now, 20 years down the road when they are claiming higher medicare bills than those not subject to the same atmosphere, the overall choice affects us all.
And thats where the true motivation for these laws come from. Its the "cost" of caring for people affected down the road. Its a persons choice to smoke so long as it doesnt affect those around them, its also your choice where you work. But unfortuneately many people are short sighted and what they dont think about now is how this is going to affect you in 20 years.
And actually, this does not ban all smoking, contrary to what many alarmists claim. Remember, they are going to use sensationalist claims to validate their "right" without realizing all the facts. Most buildings utilize a central air system and installing a secondary air circulation and filtration system just for the smoking area is cost prohibited. So the smoke from those people in the "smoking" area is still affecting all the people in the same structure, just to varying degrees. Thus smokers are still violating the non-smokers right to not inhaling the toxic chemicals. Regardless of airflow, the inside of a structure is still a confined space which traps the toxins in the air circulated throughout. Thats why many establishments have designated smoking areas, typically outdoors now. Outdoors the smoke can disappate and not affect others as much. Certain establishments are permitted to allow smoking inside if its part of the establishments business. Ie, Tobac parlors may allow smoking inside, thus many establishments are adding Tobac shops to their bars or resturants so that they can still have smoking inside...
So before critisising the laws, People should actually read them first and understand whats really being proposed, not just political sensationalism being spouted off by activists, most of which are misinformed anyways.
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
| Posted: 2005-05-27 16:14
Well, Philly's proposed bill does the following. Immediately bans smoking indoors in all but private clubs & bars where less than 10% of the income is from food service. Outdoor cafes will have the privilage of two years before they must become smoke free. [Edit] The afformentioned bars with less than 10% income from food is also included in the two year "privilage."
This is in addition to the current ban on smoking in offices and whatnot that is standard throughout the country.
The end result in New York that I myself witnessed was bands of smokers outside of bars & restaurants giving passers by a nice good lungful when they came within close proximity, as well as people entering & exiting said bar/restaurant.
@Pants: Rome, America are the two right off the top of my head.
[ This Message was edited by: Coeus on 2005-05-27 16:15 ]
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LordShard
Cadet
Joined: April 28, 2005
Posts: 140
| Posted: 2005-05-27 16:35
I think smocking and booze should be banned, nationwide no less. 
Phrohibition didn't fail, it was a success, crime was down 35% nationwide, but the senators just wanted some vodka in their pitchers instead of water. 
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Custom
Cadet
Joined: December 18, 2002
Posts: 87
| Posted: 2005-05-27 17:15
I live in Lincoln NE, and in 2004 we passed a Smoking Ban that went into Effect in Jan 1 2005.
I feel that one of the dumbest things Ive ever done in my life was to take up smoking. for the past 7 years I had a smoking habbit. yup thats right I finnaly got that damn monkey off my back, and for good this time. ( im going on 4 months now without a smoke ).
Maybe this doesnt help the huge majority of my friends that are all smokers, but it helps me out. If youve ever tried to quit, and your out with your friend drinking, you know that there is nothing like having a smoke with a beer, and you know that the only thing your going to be thinking about while your with them is those damn cigs their smoking. thats addiction...
I myself dont personally care that the bars arround here are loosing money.( there are too many bars, and drinking to excess and poping in your car is a way of life for alot of people, and its time to grow up ) Smokers are in the Minority, and the majority wins. Im sorry your gona loose alot of your income. But im not sorry you and i are healthy because smoking and cigs are out of our lives.
Brian
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NoPants2win
Cadet
Joined: February 23, 2002
Posts: 1275
From: Poorly ventilated paint storage facility.
| Posted: 2005-05-27 17:21
Touché.
I still don't buy the money argument though. Cigarette companies can buy political parties just as well as lobby groups.
But then, I thought gun control was just a leftist fad, so what do I know.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-05-27 18:28
Think of the money you'll save not buying the damn things.
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Maskerade
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 21, 2002
Posts: 638
From: Canada
| Posted: 2005-05-27 18:47
Living in a place where there has been a smoking ban for oh 3years now I think I can give a few thoughts on the matter.
Money is an issue, alot of businesses here lost money due to the ban. Casinos in particular got hit the hardest, and some restaurants claim that their businesses have declined as well. The bars fought tooth and nail against the ban but guess what? - their business is relatively unchanged. In fact the vast majority of everyone I talked to enjoyed the smoke-free night scene. The restaurants still retained their business because people still want to go out, the fact that they can't smoke inside just gets them to smoke afterwards or gets them to sit outside on the deck.
People always scream about having their rights "impeded" in some manner however they rarely take others into consideration. Sure people are free to smoke, but non-smokers have the right not to be smoked around.
So who moves?
Well society is currently backing the non-smokers. Trying to compare the law to facism is just a pitiful attempt to rally support from the uninformed (IMHO).
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
| Posted: 2005-05-27 19:28
The problem that this is creating is that freedom of choice is being mistaken as freedom to impose.
People who don't smoke don't like smoke, so they force the non-smoking policies on others.
We're having the same problem with the mass medias of TV, movies, and radio, as people who don't like violence, profanity, and sex are, instead of not watching, going out of their way to remove it from the picture entirely.
The big arguement that I see all the time is "Won't someone think of the children!" when all I can think is "Won't someone educate the children!"
Thats what I see this ban as a symbol of, the larger problem of displacing blame that is prevading the country as a whole.
I see the commercial that shows the guys who get high, and go to the drive through and end up running over the little girl on the bicycle and then it is blamed on the drugs instead of the intelligence of the driver. Never questions the lack of education and enforcement of that education of the driver's parents.
To the anti-drug campaign's credit, they have finally started holding parents accountable in the commercials, so maybe there is a sign of change on the horizon, but frankly I don't see that one marketing strategy change as a sign.
Bottom line, I don't smoke ciggerettes, I smoke cigars (so I'm already blacklisted at all the places about to be hit by the ban, almost.) As someone who has already lost my rights to smoke a cigar (which, by the way, is far less poisionous than ciggs - just pure tobacco leaves, at least in the cigars that are worth smoking) I can see this ban as the doorway to more widespread bans on things like skateboarding, loud music, and anything else that might offend someone in the upper class.
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