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Mines (Weapon) |
Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
|  Posted: 2011-10-04 02:04
What role do minelayer ships fulfill?
From what I've seen, they appear to be incredibly ineffective.
(Seriously, a frigate rammed through about 3 TN mines and it did ... 5%?)
I should think they would be for setting up a parameter that highly discourages large battleships from rolling on the scene, and would only permit small ships capable of mine sweeping to get through.
Even on a spatially 2D game such as this, there's a lot of empty space, and static mines are just going to be an annoyance that are easily dealt with by PD, just driving around the damned things, or even plowing through them because they don't do %!@# for damage.
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Flux Capacitor
Marshal
Joined: July 30, 2010
Posts: 305
From: the place
| Posted: 2011-10-04 03:03
some players got to skillfull with mines, so they got nerfed bit
now 3 mine weapon slot do same dmg as 3 projectile weapon slots...And u hive to hit the enemy for that, remote detonation dmg is slightly lower even.
the role for mining ships is to either drop a huge field at a gate, or to steer the enemy ship into a direction by dropping a mental barier
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2011-10-04 04:34
If mines are nerfed enough to only be doing the damage of projectile weapons (the weapons that actually, you know, fly to their target, instead of just sitting there like a dumb rock waiting to get PD'd) then there shouldn't even be a specialized ship for deploying them, and just have them standard on most vessels as a deterrent.
If I could make a few suggestions on mines -
Give them a several second long arming time (15 seconds?).
Make them do a percentage damage to all ships that hit them. (20%?)
Make them only destructible by Corvettes and Frigates.
Corvettes and Frigates will excel at finding them (200/150gu)
All other ship classes will be nearly right on top of them before detecting them.
If spamming gates with them is a problem, disallow the deployment of them nearby (inhibitor field?).
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Nekatil
1st Rear Admiral
Team Germany
Joined: April 07, 2010
Posts: 43
| Posted: 2011-10-04 07:28
http://darkspace.net/index.htm?module=forums.php&page=/viewtopic.php?topic=49254&forum=36&start=0
another interesting use would be
shooting mines into jumpgates to attack ships on the other side
[ This Message was edited by: Nekatil on 2011-10-04 07:32 ]
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-10-04 12:09
If mines were removed from the game, I don't think anyone would even notice. They're just not used anymore.
For a time the scarab was used, but that's because Kluth have the only worthwhile mines, and the only mines at cruiser level.
Some ways to make mines more useful:
- Replace UGTO EMP mines with a nuke equivalent, like ICC. UGTO mines are 100% totally useless, and always have been.
- Give all factions at least cruiser minelayers, since low level mines do not have an offsetting bonus like cannons, which fire faster at lower levels.
- Increase their lifetime and allow more to be deployed. Mines are only useful when laid as a minefield, and the game prevents that. Without the ability to lay minefields, only the scarab winds up truly useful, and even that is a debatable usefulness (is it more useful than a scale? Piercer? Parasite?).
- Make them invisible to all but scanners. No scanner, no ability to see and/or PD them. ECM/ECCM should not affect them at all.
- Increase their AOE range.
- Possibly re-introduce homing mines. They were fun and actually semi-useful.
Unfortunately I don't think some are possible. I don't know what kind of stress minefields would add to the server, and with them unable to be deployed as a field they will remain useless. A few mines at a time with a limited lifetime is just not worth it. Possibly if the other suggestions were implemented they might become semi-useful in certain situations (like when you're bored and want to do something a little different).
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-10-04 13:03
point A- Kluth cruiser with mines working in pairs can seveirly damage dreads, and cruisers, totaly kill dessies and under.
Point B- UGTO EMP mines on their Command Dread can kill a dread in 4x deployments. (you get two deployments at a time) Two working together can completly cut off access through a gate.
Point C- I think all mines should be set to dread level. They are really hard to use, and should have a payoff. In exchange, make exit points on jump gates random.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-10-04 13:31
Since when do UGTO mines do hull damage? Was there a change I forgot about?
And my point stands about scarabs. They're the only useful minelayer, but it's not because they can lay effective minefields to prevent access to an area.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-10-04 14:50
Quote:
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On 2011-10-04 13:31, MrSparkle wrote:
Since when do UGTO mines do hull damage? Was there a change I forgot about?
And my point stands about scarabs. They're the only useful minelayer, but it's not because they can lay effective minefields to prevent access to an area.
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EMP mines have done hull damage ever since I've been playing (1.5x), it's just nobody ever bothered using them because UGTO had no worthwhile minelaying ships.
I'd argue that the UGTO Command Dread is now the best minelayer, try one out and see for yourself.
Hell, ICC and luth command ships should have minelaying capability too, it's useful on a Dreadnought.
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Mylith
Grand Admiral
Faster than Light
Joined: July 19, 2011
Posts: 507
From: Hivarin, CD+36*15693
| Posted: 2011-10-04 21:57
Quote:
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On 2011-10-04 12:09, MrSparkle wrote:
- Make them invisible to all but scanners. No scanner, no ability to see and/or PD them. ECM/ECCM should not affect them at all.
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If the damage was increased, I don't like it. You could just lay a minefield, and let everyone ram through it near a jumpgate.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-10-04 22:30
Strangely enough that was kinda my point  Gates would be a great place to mine, and an assault through a gate should be spearheaded by a ship with a scanner so the mines can be PD'd.
I don't mean damage increased when I say AOE, I mean range. Damage would stay the same but they'd have a slightly larger splash because hitboxes in this game are funky at best (can't hit a supply ship hovering above a station because of the station's hitbox).
There obviously needs to be limits, so that the entire gate cannot be mined all around in a 100gu radius or anything.
All I know is the current limitations do not work. Mines should be a defensive weapon, deployed in areas you think the enemy will approach or pass through. They shouldn't be used like they are now. A minelayer should be mining gates ahead of an approaching fleet, mining planets or clusters, mining possible jump paths etc. , but too few can be dropped and they don't last long enough.
Actual numbers, like actual total amounts that can be deployed, how long they'll last etc. I do not know. All I know is the current amounts are too low for both.
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2011-10-04 22:46 ]
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Radiance
Grand Admiral
*Renegade Space Marines*
Joined: July 27, 2010
Posts: 106
| Posted: 2011-10-05 15:30
What if they decrease mines' damage but increase it's AOE, deployable numbers, and the amount of time they last? That way, it can't be used to mine a ship to death by flying right beside or on top of it. Please point out any flaws in my logic.
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2011-10-05 16:14
why not place objects with a fixed hp (eg 50) that damage enemys near them like planets
each time they deal damage, their hp decrease by 1
if you pd the object, each laser decrease the number by 1
and advanced idea:
bigger ships take multiple hits ( and reduce the hp more)
- scouts dont get hit, cause theyre quick and agile enough to evade the mines
- frigs take 1 hit
- dessies take 2-3
- cruiser 3-5
- dreads 10
- station all remaining
the best (but slow) way to clean a mine-field, some scouts could disarm them without harm
or a station hops in, and take all mines itself... but should get some serious damage (im talking about from 100%armor / 100% hull to 0% / 30)
maybe multiple hits do additional damage (numbers are placehoders)
1 mine does 50 points
2 mines does 50 + 50 + 20 -> 120
3 mines 3x50 + 30 -> 180 and so on
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-10-05 17:16
Quote:
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On 2011-10-05 15:30, IllusMaze wrote:
What if they decrease mines' damage but increase it's AOE, deployable numbers, and the amount of time they last? That way, it can't be used to mine a ship to death by flying right beside or on top of it. Please point out any flaws in my logic.
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One of the reasons in increasing AOE is helping prevent dropping mines too close to an enemy. However, using minelayers in that way is a novel way of playing and I don't think much can be done to stop it. I would prefer encouraging their more traditional use of pre-deployment as minefields.
Maybe an activation timer might be possible as well? I somehow doubt it's possible, but giving mines something like a 10 second activation timer would stop a lot of that unconventional use. If a ship hits them before 10 seconds they just disappear as duds. That might be a little too complicated for this game though. It's a lot to keep track of.
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Radiance
Grand Admiral
*Renegade Space Marines*
Joined: July 27, 2010
Posts: 106
| Posted: 2011-10-05 17:43
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On 2011-10-05 17:16, MrSparkle wrote:
One of the reasons in increasing AOE is helping prevent dropping mines too close to an enemy. However, using minelayers in that way is a novel way of playing and I don't think much can be done to stop it. I would prefer encouraging their more traditional use of pre-deployment as minefields.
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Well, if damage is decreased but the lasting time of mines and amount of mines are increased, then mines would only be well used in pre-deployment as numbers would allow for mass damage. Low damage from single mines reduces the temptation to suicide mine.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-10-05 19:46
That's true too. I still think people will use them in the unconventional way though, simply because it's a different and interesting way to play.
There's options for mines, that's the key here. I would love to see minelayers play a bigger role in the game. When I played Infantry's Fleet! server, I used to love flying a minelayer and watching the big capital ships run into them in the passes through the asteroids. Not that that can be ported to DS, but mines are a non-factor currently which is a shame.
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