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Lag Problems - Free trial for subbed players. |
Iglooman (SF)
Cadet
Joined: September 15, 2003
Posts: 24
From: Northern Ontario
|  Posted: 2004-03-12 01:58
I've only been here for almost 6 months as a paying customer, and I've had a good time in 1.480B, but with the beta being laggy, and the promise that it would be fixed come release, running on the power servers, I'm a little disappointed. The game is basically unplayable, with many burps, turning too far, not turning, not firing, crashing into the planet's core, rather than the crust... I might as well be playing on an old XT machine...
I don't mind riding out some of the bumps and helping iron them out, but with this massive free trial of two weeks, and a free two week coupon to those that participated in the Beta Stress test, many of which were unsubbed, it equates to a loss of a month of play to those subbed players that didn't get their two hours in the ST, and a loss of two weeks to those that did due to the increased traffic in a badly lagged game.
Now to be fair, I am on 56k. High speed is not available in my area yet. But I am talking about a game I just played in GA with 13 other players... Not exactly a high load... In the previous version, I would have had no problems... And yes, I did readjust my focus area...
If Palestar wants to offer a free two week trial, that's great - it's why I'm here. I joined at the end of the last two week trial. But please don't hurt your paying members by doing so. I am currently paying for a game I cannot play with enjoyment. At least give those that are supporting you a free two weeks while these bugs are worked out and the servers are overloaded. Most of them are quite willing to train the newbies that come along during this trial, and you'd do well to recognize their efforts as well... It was the curtious players that helped me out that really made, and still make this game what it is today... Those that can't play due to the lag with stand to lose nothing, except having to wait for things to die down and the lag to leave.
Just my two cents...
And if it's just me, and the servers haven't been laggy since 1.481 went release and the free trial began, let me know, and I'll have to consider something else, because this really is nuts and not worth my $10/month...
Sincerely,
Iglooman.
[ This Message was edited by: Iglooman (SF) on 2004-03-12 12:22 ]
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Mike Drenth - Temagami
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Barthezzz
Fleet Admiral
Joined: May 31, 2001
Posts: 5630
From: The Netherlands
| Posted: 2004-03-12 03:42
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On 2004-03-12 01:58, Iglooman (SF) wrote:
Now to be fair, I am on 56k. High speed is not available in my area yet. But I am talking about a game I just played in GA with 13 other players... Not exactly a high load... In the previous version, I would have had no problems... And yes, I did readjust my focus area...
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Im on a highspeed cable and the MV is laggy as hell. Which is odd seeing as Ds isnt a heavy gamer to run.
Heck i can play NFSU at 1280x1024 with all settings to max and AA on without problems...
Half the free trail is over and the LAg still isnt gone.
I want the old lagless game back 
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Pope
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 11, 2002
Posts: 2449
From: World of tomorrow
| Posted: 2004-03-12 05:51
This is interesting, because i cannot really say im getting it.
Synchronization in the MV and GA is perfect.
Though, i might have an idea what you are talking about.
There is one Problem, that you could describe as "lag".
The global synchronization of Ship Positions not currently in your focus has to be more frequent.
For example, yesterday when we were attacking Cygnus, i was building Azuk..
I didnt look at the chat much, doing other things while waiting for the Planet to catch up, when someone asked for supply because they ran out of jump fuel. So i went to look at the Nav Map and saw them approaching Af alone, with an ICC cruiser positioned there and the rest of our group in the Dhao system.
When i started yelling at him everyone was thinking im stupid, because in reality, there was no ICC cruiser at Af and our group had been securing it for the last 5 Minutes.
Symptoms of this problem occur all the time. For example when picking up a target to jump into Battle, which really disturbs hit-and-run Tactics.
This can be circumvented only by putting Camera on a Target in the Area of Interest, or on a Target that is assumed to be in the Area of interest now (but you see it elsewhere)
Additionally, the F3 Screen tends to drop you out at distances over your focus area. This happens quite frequently and is pretty annoying, since there is not way to cirumvent this.
There still are numerous other little problems in the game, but only one more might be related to the load balancing/networking engine: You cannot scrap any buildings or infantry until about 2 minutes after completion. Now, whie this might be by design (and if it is not, maybe should be by design!) the way it is handled is a bit unclear and confusing. There should not be a scrap option at all until the timeout ends, or a message should appear.)
I was going to make a summary issues post on the weekend, and still will. This is just to clear things up.
A possible solution to the abovementioned problem might be to establish a globally ensured minimum rate of concurrency at the cost of local concurrency.
Another, more complex to implement but probably worthwile, especially considering the growth of the MV, solution could be context sensitive secondary focus areas.
You can determine what the player is interested in by evaluating his viewport and target selection on navigation.
If there is nothing much going on in the Players primary focus, the secondary focus determined by that method (which should be calculated on the up-to-date position of the players target, and if no target is selected, by the viewport in navigation. it could also have a higher default extend, and should update ship positions with priority over everything else. projectile positions are only of secondary interest in this context!)
This could, and should, update with the same priority then the primary focus. This is only a simple example, and there is plenty room for brainstorming and detailing this out and improving it, but i will stop here, since the design specific implications are not really known to me, i can only speculate 
For example, there could be multiple secondary focus areas, or, completely different, update priority could be given on a per-ship basis, etcpp.
Please, when you experience any problems, keep in mind that the implementation of the networking and load balancing is totally fresh, try to analyze the problem instead of just thinking "damn lag", and you will see that properly reporting a important problem to F, who doesnt have the time to test all this himself on a scale like you do, will get it fixed!
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Lord DowneyBUM (UK)
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 13, 2003
Posts: 437
From: London England
| Posted: 2004-03-12 06:21
I agree with everything the first poster says.
i am now gonna take a break until lag is sorted. ive purposely stayed off for a week because my own sanity is becoming wobbly.
I pay for the privalege and fun but it has lost its fun, my systemis not big and fast but adequate, i play on a 10 GB machine with a 733 processor, on a Lan. i can play medal of honour at a super fast rate, on DS i am loosing my mind, due to lag. The old code was very playable and minimum lag problems. The new code is excellent with tghe desired effect of havng masses of players, BUT they are not gonna hang around if the lags not sorted.
Its like having a Ferrari Testerossa in the drive with a Ford Cortina engine.!!!!!
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Pope
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 11, 2002
Posts: 2449
From: World of tomorrow
| Posted: 2004-03-12 06:25
My windows box is only a dual P3 800 with half a gig of ram, and the bottleneck is CLEARLY my graphics card, which is only a GF 2..
Maybe you people have badly configured machines and/or sucky network connections.
That is, if you are not referring to out-of-focus synchronization.
In-Focus synchronization always was perfect for me.
Have you tried reducing your focus area with /focus 2000 ?
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DOM700 [-IMO-]
Fleet Admiral
Joined: July 26, 2001
Posts: 3175
From: Eckental, Germany, Sol-System
| Posted: 2004-03-12 06:32
I dont know if it should be called lagg, but sometimes my ship get synchronized by the server, especially when it is turning, well it is better then running into something
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Barthezzz
Fleet Admiral
Joined: May 31, 2001
Posts: 5630
From: The Netherlands
| Posted: 2004-03-12 07:00
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On 2004-03-12 06:25, sono wrote:
My windows box is only a dual P3 800 with half a gig of ram, and the bottleneck is CLEARLY my graphics card, which is only a GF 2..
Maybe you people have badly configured machines and/or sucky network connections.
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I have a P4 3.0 Ghz with 1 gig ram and a Gf 4 ti 4200 and a high speed cable.
I run Unreal 2004 XMP at 1280x1024 with everything set to medium and i have no problem getting a head shot on a moving target.
Somehow i dont see the problem being with my computer because Ds isnt anywhere near as heavy as Unreal.
Anyway; My ship cant seem to pick where it wants to be.
It just spikes around making 25 gu jumps left and right every 10 secs with a 250 gu spike every now and then.
This however is not the biggest problem, the problem is my ship controls not responding during one of these spikes.
In space this isnt a problem seeing as they only last 5 secs max and i wont hit anything.
But Im not going to sit within 500 gu of a planet if theres people shooting...!
It is of course possible that my connection route to DS is crapy.
But the problems started after The universe server got activated. :/
The GA server works fine btw.
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Pope
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 11, 2002
Posts: 2449
From: World of tomorrow
| Posted: 2004-03-12 07:13
Quote:
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On 2004-03-12 07:00, Barthezzz wrote:
Anyway; My ship cant seem to pick where it wants to be.
It just spikes around making 25 gu jumps left and right every 10 secs with a 250 gu spike every now and then.
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Well now this should not happen of course.. Have you tried checking alt-p output and see if you notice anything unusual?
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Juxtapose
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: May 11, 2002
Posts: 1308
From: Give me your bullets!
| Posted: 2004-03-12 07:16
There are definetly issues with the game that can not be blamed on the computer of the person playing. Before upgrading both my connection and computer my screen would occasionally freeze up for several seconds during heavy combat = clearly a symptom of my computer.
Now, its different. I give my ship an order, like turn left, and I see the turn indicator turning left but my ship continues travelling forward for several more seconds...
...same with attacking other ships. I close jump a ship (that is actually there, because as was said before, what is on the Nav Screen rarely represents what is only what was) and I hit the Space Bar. I hear that annoying sound as I keep stabbing the button. My weapons are highlighted as if they are being used, but nothing comes out for several seconds...
How annoying is that? What element of surprise I have gained? How many planets have I crashed into simply because at 600gu's out travelling at 20gu p/s my ship will not respond when I want it to turn left? Clearly with the turn indicator and my heading on my HUD changing it is not a sign of my computer or connection but the game itself.
I am certain Faustus is aware of these exact same issues. I have seen him online more often in the past week than I have seen him in the past year. So I do believe these issues will be addressed.
I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone. And that the Free Trial period is Free for a reason, because the game is undercontruction.
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Barthezzz
Fleet Admiral
Joined: May 31, 2001
Posts: 5630
From: The Netherlands
| Posted: 2004-03-12 07:17
I hope the lag gets fixed before the free trail ends...
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Pope
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 11, 2002
Posts: 2449
From: World of tomorrow
| Posted: 2004-03-12 07:25
Quote:
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On 2004-03-12 07:16, Juxtapose wrote:
Now, its different. I give my ship an order, like turn left, and I see the turn indicator turning left but my ship continues travelling forward for several more seconds...
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I get this VERY occassionally, like twice a day, and mostly after jumps or gate use.
Never had the described problems in a prolonged battle. Generally, when entering focus all objects will updated within a second or 2, and stay in sync. I dont doubt you are experiencing this same problem, im just telling what i observe
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Darksworde
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: September 06, 2002
Posts: 806
From: The Zoo
| Posted: 2004-03-12 07:37
Quote:
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On 2004-03-12 07:16, Juxtapose wrote:
Now, its different. I give my ship an order, like turn left, and I see the turn indicator turning left but my ship continues travelling forward for several more seconds...
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I get this all the time. To be honest, it means that dogfighting comes down to random luck now since u cant accurately and reliably judge where u or the enemy ship is gonna be. Not sure if i get this in GA, ill check in a mo, but i get the feeling its due to the server keeping track of object positions now.
Could be wrong, but regardless, its annoying and ruining this game for me atm!
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Darksworde
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: September 06, 2002
Posts: 806
From: The Zoo
| Posted: 2004-03-12 08:20
Scenario is perfectly fine. Looks like its MV only for me then!
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DangerBabe
Cadet
Joined: December 21, 2002
Posts: 429
From: Charlotte, NC
| Posted: 2004-03-12 09:31
Quote:
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On 2004-03-12 07:16, Juxtapose wrote:
...I give my ship an order, like turn left, and I see the turn indicator turning left but my ship continues travelling forward for several more seconds...
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Exactly the same here. And it's not occasionally, it's most of the time. I can deal with the nav map not being accurate, because I do like sono suggested and camera the target just to be sure. The annoying lag problems are during combat.
Quote:
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On 2004-03-12 07:16, Juxtapose wrote:
...same with attacking other ships. I close jump a ship (that is actually there, because as was said before, what is on the Nav Screen rarely represents what is only what was) and I hit the Space Bar. I hear that annoying sound as I keep stabbing the button. My weapons are highlighted as if they are being used, but nothing comes out for several seconds...How annoying is that?
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Really annoying. And exactly the same thing happening here. Again, it's most of the time, not occasionally. Also when while I was fighting an AC with my TC the other night, frequently I couldn't see his torps coming out of his ship. The torps would appear a mere 2 seconds from hitting me, so there was no time at all to plot an evasive course. I also heard that "bump" sound too when I pressed the spacebar with no torps flying out of my ship (even after mashing it several times), but once in awhile I would see MY torps appear only a couple of seconds before hitting the AC.
Quote:
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On 2004-03-12 07:16, Juxtapose wrote:
How many planets have I crashed into simply because at 600gu's out travelling at 20gu p/s my ship will not respond when I want it to turn left? Clearly with the turn indicator and my heading on my HUD changing it is not a sign of my computer or connection but the game itself.
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Amen there. And I have a 2.4 Ghz box with high speed cable internet. I'd type out memory and vid specs here, but I'm at work right now and don't remember them exactly. But like others have said, the previous version of DS ran fine so it's hard to believe that this is a problem with user's PCs.
With all that said, I'm confident the lag problems will get worked out. Soon, I hope, heh.
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Iglooman (SF)
Cadet
Joined: September 15, 2003
Posts: 24
From: Northern Ontario
| Posted: 2004-03-12 09:46
Sorry, didn't list my system specs at all. Just to be sure it's not the problem... P4 3.0GHZ, ATI 9800 Video card with 128MB rab, 1 GB system RAM... My bottleneck is the internet connection.
I've jumped from the Jumpgate to a planet at 5gu, and at the time I arrived, I immediately started to turn - the turn indicator showed it, but I kept going straight, until I smacked the planet, from somewhere deep inside... I've been in a battle, with only a few ships, and had long delays in turn response, no weapons firing despite hitting the (correct) weapons group key. And like I said, it happened in the scenario server last night, with 13 other players... I reset my focus to 2500 and it still didn't help. Maybe I should try 500gu? I believe I read that F said the previous version used 2500. It would be nice to keep tabs on targets in missle range...
This release feels like a glorified stress test - the different? I, along with others that are subbed, watch as our subscription is ticking away while the game in definitely not fun to play, through no fault of our own.
Stating my case simply, I would like to see the subbed player get the same free two week trial while these issues are being sorted out.
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Mike Drenth - Temagami
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