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Dreadspace (yes, that dead horse) |
Okkam
Marshal
Joined: February 06, 2008
Posts: 157
From: Dorset
|  Posted: 2013-04-08 12:17
Right, we already know what this thread is about with a title 'Dreadspace' but let's get some clear positions and arguments going first.
Make no assumptions, I deeply love flying stations and have flown them a lot recently, but this also adds to my point. I don't fly any other type of ship at the moment and that is because the most common ship i'll fight is another player Dreadnaught.
We have all worked hard for our ranks and I would like to use a dreadnaught now and again, but ask yourself if you would actually enjoy the game more if enemy fleets had a mixed player composition instead of pure dreads.
This change might have a better development in team fights and how the game works as a group. It would also be less repetitive than to see 3+ Combat dreads and 2 Assault dreads (or UGTO/K'luth counterparts).
You used to fly other ships otherwise you wouldn't have the prestige to fly the big ones.
This change could also make the game friendlier to newer players who might be overwhelmed by the MV and not being able to fly a dreadnaught.
The MV has more players in it on a regular basis than the scenario and is usually the first point of contact for any new player as the server says 'Population: Medium' compared to 'Population: Perfect' (i.e near empty)
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[EDIT] (19/04/2013)
- edit#2: Spaced out bullet points for easier reading, sorry for length.
I wish to summarise ideas mentioned so far in this thread. (please keep in mind I have read the first 9 pages of this thread, if your suggestion is after page 9 I will have to add it)
This in turn will help the admins/mods/programmers/players understand the points raised and then think on them. Arguments FOR and AGAINST these suggestions are in the thread somewhere, this is a summary of points provided for easier reference.
Current suggestions/thoughts:
1.) New ship tier system is being conceived and introduced soon. This might solve the problems addressed here.
- This thread could arguably be called invalid due to this, but it is still a recurring discussion.
2.) Introduce a race balancing effect to the MV similar to the scenario server.
- An idea proposed before and isn't widely popular.
3.) Introduce a minimum jump range distance to prevent 'point jumping' (which is in itself directly linked to the dreadnaught population)
- See Kenny_Naboo posts that aren't replying to cloaks for more information.
4.) Introduce a 'zone' around a player's ship that cannot be jumped into directly, reducing the ability of 'point jumping' to 500gu (for example.
- Kenny_Naboo (Developer) has stated that example 3 is easier to code and produces less issues than this.
5.) Change assault dreadnaughts to be more of a specific weapon (like all current ships) than a 'One Spacebar Fits All'. Reduce speed/turn rate and side/rear armour of assault dreadnaughts to curb the use of pure assault dreads.
- Not a direct fix to 'dreadspace' but adding diversity into the dreadnaught role, instead of only higher prestige players having access to the RAW damage ships that has one role. Changing the assault class of dreadnaughts to be high risk, high reward front facing glass cannons.
6.) Limit the dreadnaughts in a fleet.
- As Kenny_Naboo pointed out quickly, it has already been dicussed and senior devs are not in favour.
7.) Introduce beam weapons more on smaller ships, reduce the energy cost on small ships of such weapons. In turn, change larger ships to almost pure non-beam weapons (projectile, p-cannons, missiles, rails and so on).
- This might turn smaller ships into feirce close combat high damage vessels and larger ones for combat vs larger ships/seige. It would also mean that larger ships have trouble shooting smaller ones.
8.) Introducing a longer firing cycle on beams so that it gives smaller ships the ability to jump away or move (in some way) to avoid the damage.
- Adding more survivability to smaller ships, giving incentive to use them against dreadnaughts without too much fear of point jump+spacebar.
9.) Re-characterise ships and classes (see first bullet point) so that small ships focus on burst and high damage at close range, anti dreadnaught torpedoes and so on. Medium sized (cruisers) would be the main battle ship and dreadnaughts would be long range but seige fighting (stand-offs).
- At this point, it seems this is a discussion being produced with the current and Soon(tm) changes to DS.
10.) Maneuverability on K'luth dreadnaughts matters not due to their cloak being able to close the gap. It has been raised at this point that cloak should be re-looked at as a tactical device instead of a all in one.
- While this is about dreadnaughts, it is a hot subject on the fact that K'luth get away with dreadnaught use more than others due to cloak being the best ability to escape smaller ships/conflict.
[ This Message was edited by: Okkam's Razor (Silenthunter13) on 2013-04-19 15:07 ]
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Zero28
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 25, 2006
Posts: 591
| Posted: 2013-04-08 15:00
I can already feel the Mdos sayign o to limit the Ammount of Dreads/Station As it would make some players mad because they cant use theirs when they want
Also keep in mind, The ship tier system That is comign is makign a lot of changes to the way small and big ships handles, inluding there requierements
I also beleive kenny is in the discustion To find a way to Limit this "Point blank jump" that kluth ( and other factions since its aparently the only way to fight properly) uses soooooooooooo much
best to way and see What Changes with the tier system. Its pretty pointless to make any changes until it comes out
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+SuperNova+
Marshal
Joined: June 20, 2008
Posts: 30
From: Inside You
| Posted: 2013-04-08 22:21
Quote:
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On 2013-04-08 15:00, Zero28 wrote:
I can already feel the Mdos sayign o to limit the Ammount of Dreads/Station As it would make some players mad because they cant use theirs when they want
Also keep in mind, The ship tier system That is comign is makign a lot of changes to the way small and big ships handles, inluding there requierements
I also beleive kenny is in the discustion To find a way to Limit this "Point blank jump" that kluth ( and other factions since its aparently the only way to fight properly) uses soooooooooooo much
best to way and see What Changes with the tier system. Its pretty pointless to make any changes until it comes out
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I agree, meanwhile if you feel like playing a dread but cant risk it, you can always come over to kluth side to play, like what other fleets did.  Kluth ftw~
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-04-09 00:35
Before you guys continue flogging the carcass, just know that
- Kluth, and cloak, ain't going away. Not in the foreseeable future anyway. It's an integral part of the game and faction. So that's that.
- There's no plans to control ship population ATM. This has been hotly debated before, and personally while I'm an advocate of class limits, I would say that a majority of the players probably aren't, and that goes with the senior devs too.
The Tier system is coming, and we'll just have to see from there whether the "bigger is better" mentality will still prevail after implementation.
Now, flog on. Whip it, boys.
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Walrus of Apathy
Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: August 07, 2005
Posts: 466
From: Dorans Basement
| Posted: 2013-04-09 00:47
Quote:
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On 2013-04-09 00:35, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
Now, flog on. Whip it, boys.
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[ This Message was edited by: Walrus of Apathy on 2013-04-09 00:50 ]
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Taelon
Marshal
Joined: December 26, 2011
Posts: 255
| Posted: 2013-04-09 06:02
Umm animal abuse? We K'luth wouldv'e gladly ate it before you abused it. Horse is not as good as human meat though...
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The Stig
1st Rear Admiral
Praetorian Wolves
Joined: August 04, 2011
Posts: 14
From: killface
| Posted: 2013-04-09 06:10
yes yes. Because forcing players to play the game a certain way has done wonders for it up until now, hasn't it? lol.
There will always be sheep among wolves. Devs cant fix that.
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2013-04-09 06:41
the cause of the problem as i see it is
-point jumps
-excessive beams on kluth, and in general high tier ships
-very fragile small ships
1st will probably take more months of debating, 3rd might be dealt with in the new ships system. 2nd is my target.
what is the chance that a random small ship dies while facing a Ganglia, Brood, Krill or even a Mandible? roughly, the combined chances of these things is well below that of a Siphon killing a small ship.
the same can be said for the other faction's Assault dreads vs all their other dreads combined.
small ships have low-medium armor/shields (4~8) and hull that explode quick yet painfully. frigates barely can take on 1 Assault disruptor/HCL to the hull. imagine 4 doing the same.
it might be that helping small ships keep their range (i.e. no pont jumps)would greatly increase their survivability, but they "should" be able to take a hit before saying "time to run" or "you got me"...
ships have too many beams (which will get mostly fixed next patch). Siphon has 8 A-Disruptors, 6 Disruptors and 6 ELF Beams. EAD - 6 HCL, 4 SCL, 4 Flux. the AD has the least luck with 4 HCL, 6 CBL (which is negated by Sabot Torpedoes). the notorious Parasite has 3 A-Dis, 4 Disruptors, 4 ELF. Drainer destroyer - 1 A-Dis, 6 Dis, 2 ELF.
so much firepower, and if youre hit, you're out of luck for the most part.
im hoping that even the beam-oriented ships of next patch dont have too many beams, especially kluth who seem to have every one of their weapons aimed forwards (cant they too have some towards the back, like the krill or v1.5 ganglia?)
maybe it's better to leave beams for small ships (which can only accomodate 4-10 of them), while dreads carry mainly non-beam weapons (mines, cannons, torps, fighters) with intention to kill either small ships or large.
endnote-less beams, less concentrated distribution of beams, more preference of beams for small ships.
/beamhate
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-(kha-ti the silent watcher)-
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 12, 2011
Posts: 185
From: the land of silent watchers
| Posted: 2013-04-09 10:12
Quote:
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On 2013-04-09 06:02, Taelon*RO* wrote:
Umm animal abuse? We K'luth wouldv'e gladly ate it before you abused it. Horse is not as good as human meat though...
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i hope you know we don't eat human meat. it seems every luth doesn't know that.
[ This Message was edited by: -(kha-ti the silent watcher)- on 2013-04-09 10:12 ]
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Okkam
Marshal
Joined: February 06, 2008
Posts: 157
From: Dorset
| Posted: 2013-04-09 11:32
Oh make no mistakes, I wasn't wanting K'luth to be changed nor for cloak to be taken away. It was simply the example I had to show that made me RAGE from the night before.
I am aware of the upcoming changes but didn't know the views of mount olympus. Now that I know the devs are apparently 'against it' then that's that really.
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Diabo|ik
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 16, 2002
Posts: 327
From: Quebec, Canada
| Posted: 2013-04-09 12:24
Kinda strange... I was there when this hapenned and what I noticed was different... I was seeing 2 pimped Siphons trying to point jump an unpimped ICC scout ship... It usually played out like this:
Dread jumps, deploys all beams, scout goes down to 80% shield, jumps away, laughs, rinse/repeat.
Heck I even jumped it myself in the Mandible when it was going a straight line toward me, I had the luck of jumping so that it was right on my nose ( began firing when it crossed my armor ring in a straight line ). 4 SI, 5 cannons, all beams and 12 AM torps hit it with full force. I expected it to go *poof*. Instead it just waltzed away with minimal shield damage...
I do agree tho that smaller ships have the stick in this version. I don't even consider a cruiser a threat in this build if I'm in a dread. It's just a pesky little fly. Even the old mighty ICC AC is a bloody joke.
Make no mistakes IT IS dreadspace. I wish it would go back to where cruisers and destroyers were actually something to fear in a dread and take into account rather than just shrug it off as a pesky useless fly while you focus on the enemy dreads or stations.
Can't wait to see how it'll play out in 1.7.
*Whips the dead horse some more for good measure.*
Cheers!
[ This Message was edited by: Diabo|ik on 2013-04-09 12:26 ]
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2013-04-09 12:41
I remember a while back there was some talk about giving beams a longer firing cycle. They'd still do the same damage but would be active for a longer period of time and spread the damage out more, which would give smaller ships more of a chance to either jump or move out of it's firing arc. That seems to be the best solution as it would have no effect on Dread vs. Dread or Dread vs. Station combat.
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Mylith
Grand Admiral
Faster than Light
Joined: July 19, 2011
Posts: 507
From: Hivarin, CD+36*15693
| Posted: 2013-04-09 15:04
I think this post was meant to be in this thread.
Quote:
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On 2013-04-04 12:57, Jabberwocky wrote:
Diab, I had no chance of driving you off and capping the planet. One I was in planet def and two i was under constant ai attack. the only reason I bought the station was to drive your station away (worked) my secondary goal was to keep you occupied while the bomber did its work (didn't work so well). As for the Battle Station, I've been in orbit around a friendly planet that was under attack by Kluth. They jumped me in two siphons and a gang. I killed one siphon and almost killed the other without a scratch. Gang was the only one that could hurt me. So I agree it was a bad place for a station to be.... but I already knew that.
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2013-04-12 08:59
Shouldn't the easiest to use ships be the first available to new players?
Assault dreads, for example, don't take a lot of brains to use, they use sheer firepower.
You press J, hit spacebar, and unless the other ship gets out of there, will probably lose.
Those should be the first available, while more tactical dreads like carriers, cannon dreads, and missile dreads come later on, because they're harder to use effectively and need more knowledge of the game.
Otherwise you have high ranking players in ships built for sheer damage, while all the low ranking players are forced to use ships that are only effective in groups and special situations, so are at a huge disadvantage.
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Doran
Chief Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 29, 2003
Posts: 4032
From: The Gideon Unit
| Posted: 2013-04-12 09:09
thats an interesting angle.
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