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Ants
Chief Marshal
Joined: February 11, 2005
Posts: 315
From: Canada
|  Posted: 2011-10-07 11:31
Moved it to this form. its an eye opener not a suggestion.
This is what I have right now, this is not a to be meant as flaming but hopefully to help open some eyes.
Faction Specialty (v)
Cloak vs Flux Wave vs Pulse Wave.
Cloak is the most used and is useful, exception it is easily countered by ECCM and blind fire.
Flux Wave is the most powerful and exploitable specialty due to it no longer damages friendly’s, no limit to use. *Con’s from Enemy point of view it can take an 80% hull to dead with 4 or 5 of them going off.
Pulse Wave, *lease used in the game due 65% success per projectile to missiles are easily PD from all faction now, fighters do not enter PD or Pulse wave area. I would suggest making it also do small hull damage as it damages projectiles and have it stop 65% of all projectiles e.g. cannons, torps, cores…
Assault Cruisers
Scale – 7 armor slots, 2 forward, port starboard and 1 aft.
Torpedo – 8 armor slots, 2 on all arcs.
Assault – 3 armor and 4 shields, 1 armor and 1 shield forward, port starboard and 1n shield aft.
ICC and K’luth have weak armor on aft while UGTO has full plated armor on all arcs.
Command Dreads
Brood
- Weapons = 4 fighters, 4 cannons, 2 SI’s, 9 disruptors,
- Armor = 7 armor weak aft
- Other 2 aux power, 2 builds, 2 Tractors, 2 Electronic Warfare.
Brood has a mix of ranged, mid ranged weapons and close ranged weapons. This ship can launch a few fighters and can fire a few mid ranged shots in to a battle but does not hold up like the Krill, Mandi or Siphon. This command class ships is not used and a primary ship for the faction
Command Dread
- Weapons = 6 Standard Chemical lasers, 10 Proton Torps, 8 Particle cannons (5 firing on all arcs), 3 mines (Drops 24 mines)
- Armor = 8 armor 2 per arc
- Other = 3 aux power, 3 Electronic Warfare, 2 builds,
The Command Dread is basically another Battle dread of the UGTO fleet. This ships has 3 Electronic Warfare slots that is not only unfair to K’luth but another advantage to the UGTO faction.
Command Carrier
- Weapons = 6 fighters, 8 Standard Chemical lasers
- Armor = 4 armor and 4 shields
- Other = 2 aux power, 3 Electronic Warfare 3 tractors, 2 builds.
This is one of the least used ships in the ICC as for building an engie is less press to lose. As for fighters the “lesser” Agincourt Carrier that carries more fighters and beams. With the limit of 3 squads of fighters make fighters obsolete as you are limited to the amount of damage this ship can produce.
As for the Combat/Battle dreads.
ICC has the Combat dread,
UGTO has the Battle Dread, Command Dread, Carrier Dread.
K’Luth has the Krill and Mandi.
ICC shields do take up a bit more space on the ship but is supposed to give better defenses. For a ranged faction the Missile ships pack less racks and most ships in the game can now PD the missiles. Fighters no longer enter PD range and make the pulse laser and pulse shield useless in this sense.
UGTO should have a couple extra weapon slots per hull size then ICC due to space, but meant to be slower and less maneuverable due to weight. UGTO seems to have lost the balanced between the two and looks like they get the full total battle ships, Extra armor, more weapons, better arcs, and more ships in the same class. UGTO main dreads flown these days are the command dread and the EAD, backed by the TC and HC.
K’Luth meant to have less defenses and stronger weapons. This seems to okay in most standard dreads, Mandi and Siphon. The Brood does not stand up to its counterpart the Command Dead, and it out performs the ICC Command Carrier by miles.
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[ML]RogueAvengerTTV
Marshal
Joined: September 11, 2010
Posts: 300
From: England
| Posted: 2011-10-07 11:57
Quote:
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On 2011-10-07 11:31, Fatal Ants (XO) wrote:
Assault – 3 armor and 4 shields, 1 armor and 1 shield forward, port starboard and 1n shield aft.
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not entirely true if u think about it all icc ships have 4x shields on 1 to one arc due to shield roation
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Eledore Massis [R33]
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: May 26, 2002
Posts: 2695
From: tsohlacoLocalhost
| Posted: 2011-10-07 12:17
Just skimmed the topics.
Quote:
| On 2011-10-07 11:31, Fatal Ants (XO) wrote:
ICC shields do take up a bit more space on the ship but is supposed to give better defenses.
UGTO should have a couple extra weapon slots per hull size then ICC due to space, |
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Other way around, ICC shields take less space on the ship, but at the cost of requiring energy. UGTO armor does not consume energy but is larger because the defence system is attached to the ship, wich in turn makes the ships mass larger and makes the ship harder to turn..
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Demigan
Vice Admiral
Joined: September 12, 2011
Posts: 88
| Posted: 2011-10-07 12:31
Shields:
Shields are supposed to be stronger then armour if you rotate them. This might be the case, but the other two factions deal more damage overall, making the advantage in armour absolete. Only advantage that remains is faster regen, which has a proper drawback in that it takes energy.
ICC needs more specialities. It is outperformed in the most basics of the game (firepower and armour), it needs proper compensation in other area's. From being allowed to keep more fighters in the air at a time, to specials that make the faction unique and allow them to keep one step ahead of their enemies, even if that is one step ahead of being destroyed yourself.
I've not played long, but I've played solely ICC, and it seems that where the other two factions are straight up firepower (with k'luth needing more tactics to deliver them then UTGO), the ICC is a trickster organisation that uses technology and dubious tactical devices.
I tried the ICC 'v' a few times, trying to save energy that would otherwise be used by my PD lasers. It didn't work very well, 65% of missiles and fighters just isn't enough. Either the % chance should be raised so it is a one time bail-out vs a full station rocket attack, or as said it should be usable vs more weapons.
Maybe instead of hull damage, it could disable enemy weapon systems for less then a second. This allows you to position for a jump to get away, but does not allow groups of people to keep an enemy deactivated.
Whatever happens, ICC does not need a damage boost (or nerf), nor does it need their shields improved. It needs more strange devices that give advantages in certain conditions. From temporary engine boosts, tighter turns, or abilities to slow opponents down, transfer or even share energy and/or shields, share jump fuel or have bonusses when certain weapons from different ships attack the same ship simultaneously. almost anything can be a proper advantage, and every device needs proper drawbacks to prevent OP, from simply taking up space in your inventory, to your shield being used as energy for the device you are using.
Yours sincerely,
Demigan.
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2011-10-07 13:01
Try flying the other factions first. Seems like you're just going off on a tangent about UGTO being OP and ICC being UP, whereas you only fly ICC.
5 Flux Waves don't deal enough damage to hull a dread from 80% (no-where close infact).
Armour weights significantly more than shields (you can see the effects in beta by just increasing the armour values), and you can rotate the shields to get 320% more hp than anything comparable to standard armour on a given arc.
Everyone always thinks the grass is greaner on the other side - try playing the other factions. You fight vs K'Luth, you think they do horrendous amounts of damage and their AHR & cloak is insane. Fight AS them, you think you do no damage, your cloak is fickle, and the AHR takes too long.
Fight vs ICC, and it feels like they annoyingly take down your armour daft fast at range, where as you can't do anything, and when you get close it feels like you can't get through their shields before they get you into hull. Fight AS them, and you feel like your shields are paper thin, and you do no damage.
Fight vs UGTO, and it feels like they can take a beating and keep on kicking, and when they kick, they kick hard in a short period of time. Fight AS them, and you start to realise you can't turn or accelerate anywhere near as fast as others (significantly so), and your performance outside of 300 gu is subpar to everyone else due to heavy falloff, and the damage you output costs a laughable amount of energy (EAD's out of juice in 6 alpha's or under).
Each faction has its cons and pros - everyone has their own 'rose-tinted' and 'grace is always greener' versions, but the real problem with the factions is player numbers, and there's little we can do to solve that  .
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-10-07 13:10
I think the single greatest thing that can be done to help ICC is to simplify its controles.
Put in automated shield managment systems while at the same time keeping the ability to manualy controle those aspects.
The single greatest problem with icc, is lack of players. It lacks players because of bad rap it gets from players who try to play them and fail.
ICC is not nearly as bad off as most believe. If we have anywhere near equal numbers, we own. It just requires a HUGE ammount of micro management to get an ICC ship to perform on par with its UGTO/kluth counterparts.
Also, ICC underestimate the power of the indictor. Ive been saying for quite some time, that every combat wing should be joined with a defensive indictor pilot. An indictor is the only thing in game that can assure you keep your one true advantage against the two close range factions.
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[ML]RogueAvengerTTV
Marshal
Joined: September 11, 2010
Posts: 300
From: England
| Posted: 2011-10-07 15:15
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On 2011-10-07 13:10, *XO*Defiance{CM7} wrote:
I think the single greatest thing that can be done to help ICC is to simplify its controles.
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hey defiance this makes sence .... for once  haha but yeh i agree icc players need 3 hands
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-10-07 15:27
It's true, Pulse Shield is junk now, especially when there's a lot of missiles/fighters flying around some don't display at all (I'm not talking because of negative signature, they aren't rendered and simply do not show up period, you take damage without even seeing anything hit you) and fighters don't get into range of it. Even when you can see the missiles a 65% chance to destroy each of them means on average only a little over half of any that are in range are taken out. It was better before when it was guaranteed to take out everything in range, even if it also took out friendly missiles/fighters. Why was Flux Wave's damage not reduced when it was changed to not damage allies?
I keep seeing people say to try playing the other factions before saying anything, which I have done. I play as UGTO occasionally in MV with another account and it IS a lot easier than playing ICC, especially with anything smaller than a Dreadnought. UGTO Frigates, Destroyers, and Cruisers will come out on top vs. an equivalent ICC ship (often even in a stock UGTO ship vs modded ICC ship) because small ship combat is done at optimal range for UGTO. Even Cruiser vs Cruiser you aren't going to be hitting much of anything past 400-500 GU, and 500 GU is around where shot per shot damage between PC and Rails equals out, it's DPS that equals out around 300 GU.....the irony is a UGTO small ship can be the one to keep the range and have the advantage, ICC will be forced to close range in order to not waste ammo. The exception being Scout vs Scout, an ICC Sensor Corvette will usually come out on top vs a UGTO Assault Corvette unless the ICC player doesn't know how to fly Scouts and lets the UGTO player get behind him and stay there. UGTO small ships also perform similarly well against Kluth small ships for the same reason, close range PC damage output is devastating against the more fragile luth small ships.
Sure, ICC have an advantage in maneuverability, but going up against the same size or smaller size ships it's not nearly as much of an advantage as it is going up against bricks and shrooms because there's no advantage in top speed. Add to that most UGTO who do keep a Destroyer or Cruiser in their garage generally mod them for speed/turning because they don't NEED extra firepower or defense when they use them for going after smaller ships, once you close to point blank with a similar sized ICC ship it's pretty much over.
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Thrie
Fleet Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 760
| Posted: 2011-10-07 15:54
^ Deserves a medal.
Quote:
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On 2011-10-07 15:27, Talien wrote:
I keep seeing people say to try playing the other factions before saying anything, |
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And prior to 1.671, that argument is absolutely valid. It has now become an excuse and I lose faith on the players and game every time someone says it. Playing ICC should not be a chore but that's exactly how it feels.
Edit:
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On 2011-10-07 13:01, Pantheon wrote:
Each faction has its cons and pros - everyone has their own 'rose-tinted' and 'grace is always greener' versions, but the real problem with the factions is player numbers, and there's little we can do to solve that . |
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Current problem is these cons and pros are relative. If they were static, this would be a completely different story. When the game becomes a chore and grind, its a bad way to convince newer players to stay and we run into the problem of lack of numbers. When problems persist, veteran players cease to play and further decreasing player numbers. This is where we're standing. The game could be a masterpiece of codings, algorithms and features but without producing a favorable game play for the players, the masterpiece just doesn't feel like it has the players in mind (and it goes back to above mentioned where newer players not staying).
[ This Message was edited by: Thrie on 2011-10-07 16:30 ]
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*Nemesis*©
Chief Marshal
*Renegade Space Marines*
Joined: March 05, 2005
Posts: 213
| Posted: 2011-10-07 19:07
Make all factions have the same weapons (but with the current names of each faction) Make all factions have the same armour/hull (but with the current names)
Then moan when UGTO wins.
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Ants
Chief Marshal
Joined: February 11, 2005
Posts: 315
From: Canada
| Posted: 2011-10-07 22:57
Quote:
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On 2011-10-07 13:01, Pantheon wrote:
Try flying the other factions first. Seems like you're just going off on a tangent about UGTO being OP and ICC being UP, whereas you only fly ICC.
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I have played ALL factions with a GA account or above. This is not a flame but a fact in observation.
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5 Flux Waves don't deal enough damage to hull a dread from 80% (no-where close infact).
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Never said against a dread, it happened to me in a Claw then again in a scale. In an AD I have seen my hull drop from 52% to 20 in the blink of an eye.
I have also been in a TC and the should out for Flux was given to do large damage.
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Armour weights significantly more than shields (you can see the effects in beta by just increasing the armour values), and you can rotate the shields to get 320% more hp than anything comparable to standard armor on a given arc.
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It does seem to weigh a bit more, but the maneuverability of -1 degree less then ICC is not a huge decrease. I also timed in beta and it took 15.2 seconds for both EAD and AD to go from 0-15gu.
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Everyone always thinks the grass is greaner on the other side - try playing the other factions. You fight vs K'Luth, you think they do horrendous amounts of damage and their AHR & cloak is insane. Fight AS them, you think you do no damage, your cloak is fickle, and the AHR takes too long.
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Playing K'luth is fun, they do plenty of damage against ICC. Like I posted before 6 Siphons against EAD and we are all out of power before its dead. Cloak is great against all factions, if you don't have a battle dread (CD) that can to 3 pings in a row and if done right will ping you to death as it can follow you and do constant firing. thats 1 on 1. if its a team the Command Dread(s) can be the scout and use a fleet to ping death your fleet.
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Fight vs ICC, and it feels like they annoyingly take down your armour daft fast at range, where as you can't do anything, and when you get close it feels like you can't get through their shields before they get you into hull. Fight AS them, and you feel like your shields are paper thin, and you do no damage.
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Playing against ICC is a pain if you stay at a distant. They do massive damage when they out number your faction. As for being K'luth against them it is balanced "feeling" the fight can go either way. yeah the shields can be a pain, but using a Siphon I can hull them before losing energy. being UGTO in different Modded EADs, and CD's get in close and they don't stand a chance.
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Fight vs UGTO, and it feels like they can take a beating and keep on kicking, and when they kick, they kick hard in a short period of time. Fight AS them, and you start to realise you can't turn or accelerate anywhere near as fast as others (significantly so), and your performance outside of 300 gu is subpar to everyone else due to heavy falloff, and the damage you output costs a laughable amount of energy (EAD's out of juice in 6 alpha's or under).
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This is so true, but the fall off seems to be further then 300 gu, I could be wrong.
Playing UGTO I do not know who stays back ranged unless there is a couple stations or depots around. But that said it is all jump in and beat up. The combat of this game is written to be ranged ICC and Up close and personal UGTO/K'luth. the issue is ICC can do large damage from afar if they do hit but they are also jumped and made to run or killed fairly easy.
As it is stated, the ICC is also softened up with ranged ships from UGTO or even K'luth, UGTO just has to be closer and use their multiple ships to do mid-long ranged ships to kill ICC shields. But usually it is jump in with overwhelming number of EADs and Command Dreads. My favorite UGTO move I do is in a command Dread in combat last all fire from ICC and drop ECM Mines to kill their shields, works great to find K'luth dreads.
Even with dictors used it is used to get in and get out.
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Each faction has its cons and pros - everyone has their own 'rose-tinted' and 'grace is always greener' versions, but the real problem with the factions is player numbers, and there's little we can do to solve that .
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Sorry to hear that.
But again this is not what this was really intended for.
I looked at the issues I and may others see.
ICC Pulse shield is useless now, The only faction to have a useful command Dread now is UGTO and it seems to have replaced the Battle Dread. Torpedo Cruiser has more armor.
Am I asking to have the Nerf Bat swung? No It will never happen. This is an opinion, do I find it easier flying UGTO? Yes I feel it is. I feel the way the game is now made is fast paced game that has turned to quick combat and turned away from planet and resource gathering. This in turn does make it harder for ICC as they need to "Cushion the armor" to have a quick fair fight. UGTO need to jump in guns blazing as that is how they are played. Kluth needs to cloak, make their way up, fire a few alphas and get out.
Like Defiance said ICC is not bad off, I also say K'luth is well off also could use a tad more power. I am not even saying that UGTO is wrong, but the matrix of the game is more geared towards UGTO. If their was longer combat and enough persons on to keep UGTO at bay while ICC uses ranged missiles to eat away their fleet then it might be better balanced feeling.
Again Opinion.
[ This Message was edited by: Fatal Ants (XO) on 2011-10-07 23:18 ]
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2011-10-08 00:27
Quote:
| On 2011-10-07 13:01, Pantheon wrote:
Each faction has its cons and pros - everyone has their own 'rose-tinted' and 'grace is always greener' versions, but the real problem with the factions is player numbers, and there's little we can do to solve that . |
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Amongst factions, playing as UGTO is the most entertaining because of players. They're easy going, have good sense of humor and sometimes tell hilarious adult jokes which I'm glad to hear.
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2011-10-08 06:05
i wonder what is the situation of the icc composite armor.
when ugto armor variants had a strength boost, did icc armor also receive the same or comparable treatment?
and may i, on behalf of icc populace, ask for composite armor to receive a 20%-30% damage resistance as compensation for having less strength than even the carbon-based reflective armor? kinetic resistance would be lovely for a long range defensive faction which should depend on anti-range resistances (yes, those ugto and kluth use torpedoes and core weapons a lot, and they hurt too).
also, afaik both organic and chitinous armor plates have psi damage resistance, when its very visible that kluth pilots are unlikely to deal friendly fire (they coordinate attacks, position properly, actively avoid ff'ing each other).
imo they can safely lose this resistance, and instead chitinous armor can receive a more deserving boost to complement its kinetic damage resistance.
this post is approved by dr. michael paradox (ugto), grand cannon boomshot (k'luth) and brahmastra (icc)
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Demigan
Vice Admiral
Joined: September 12, 2011
Posts: 88
| Posted: 2011-10-08 07:15
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On 2011-10-07 13:01, Pantheon wrote:
Try flying the other factions first. Seems like you're just going off on a tangent about UGTO being OP and ICC being UP, whereas you only fly ICC.
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Even though I play only ICC, I find combat vs UTGO entertaining. Make a mistake, you are dead, you play well, you can mostly jump out in time, you play as a team, you really feel accomplishment for winning a battle, and absolutely no shame in losing a battle against a team that can pound you to dust in seconds if they get close, where you need minutes to wither them away.
Let's put it differently, let's assume all factions ARE balanced out in their firepower etc.
ICC needs loads more micromanagement then the other factions from what I hear, and what is their reward for all that work? to be on par with the other two factions. Thats not right, if you do a lot more work, you need to get a bigger reward then being just as strong as the other two. Worse: new players are scared away as they can't keep up with the easier factions, and either join the other factions or quit the game.
Edit: Before anyone says it, I don't mean that ICC should be an instant win the moment you do the right stuff. But when you display superior tactics, you should win, just like UTGO should win when they use superior tactics, and just like k'luth should win when they use superior tactics.
ICC has a higher risk factor, and needs more handlings to be good. They should have some reward for this, and as I said, they should NOT have this reward in more firepower or armour, but in different ways.
Yours sincerely,
Demigan.
[ This Message was edited by: Demigan on 2011-10-08 09:35 ]
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Flux Capacitor
Marshal
Joined: July 30, 2010
Posts: 305
From: the place
| Posted: 2011-10-08 16:04
if ur a good icc player ppl call u elite.
if ur a good ugto player ur a child that needs to shut its mouth
if ur good as kluth ur a woosie cloaking noob
so...icc is the only faction where u can become an elite player! Also ur ships look awesome
icc isnt best faction for a single player to kill an enemy. when alone, go the way of the annoyer by using ur loads of ecm slots.
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