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Arguing Basics |
Scorched Soul[+R]
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: November 14, 2005
Posts: 378
From: USA, NJ, Princeton
|  Posted: 2010-11-03 14:35
seeing as how this is what goes on in the majority of the forums i believe that this is well deserved so i lifted it from http://tyranids.gameapollo.com/faq.php#f50
I also believe that this should be made required reading.
Arguing Basics
Arguing basics? What the crap?
Yes, arguing basics. Zaha has studied university-level politics, sociology and psychology and thus by necessity has a rather strong focus on logic and how to argue properly. He's happiest when people are actually using logic to argue and make coherent sense and grumpiest when people mangle logic and reasoning, hence this section of the FAQ.
If you want to be able to improve your ability to make a point (or honestly want to have a chance of winning an argument against Zaha), keep reading.
How is an argument structured?
An argument is basically divided into three sections - the premise/assumptions, the reasoning and the conclusion.
The premise or assumptions are the starting point. Basically, this is where you say "this is what we know to be true". If you do the reasoning and conclusion correctly, this should be the only part of your argument that people could disagree with. And if your conclusion is amongst your assumptions, you're doing it wrong.
The reasoning is where you link the assumptions together with your clever web of logic - "because of these things, we can also say...". This is also where you attempt to negate or counter the possibility of any conclusion other than your final conclusion.
The conclusion is your summary. It's the end point of your reasoning. If your reasoning is solid and you haven't missed anything, there should be no other potential conclusions.
Also, throwing in some sort of related evidence that supports your argument, at any of these three stages, never hurts.
Following this pattern not only means that other people can understand your thought processes, it also generally makes your reasoning stronger and helps you improve your argument.
Remember: an argument is a structured piece of logic, it is not endlessly repeating the same assertion over and over. (I find that this one happens alot here)
Define your terms and stick to them
The worst possible flaw in an argument is a vaguely defined word. Unless you are very specific about what you mean, you're likely to cause arguments where you and the person you're arguing with are actually arguing about two different things.
For example:
One person says "feminism is good, it promotes women's rights and has given women the vote, better jobs, higher pay and better living standards". Another person says "feminism is bad, feminists hate men and don't take into account the natural differing strengths of each gender".
They could argue like that all day and get nowhere, because they're talking about different concepts and issues, but both using the same word (feminism) to represent them. So it's very important that when you begin your argument, you're specific about what you mean. If you do that, you'll eliminate half the problems you'd otherwise have to deal with. Similarly, it'll help you keep in focus what it is you're trying to say.
Lack of proof isn't proof
A very important point to remember, which often gets ignored in religious debates:
Just because something hasn't been proven true, doesn't make it false. And just because something hasn't been proven false, doesn't make it true.
Many people will attempt to argue that someone's god doesn't exist, because they can't prove it to. Many people will attempt to argue that their god does exist, because nobody can prove it doesn't. Both of these arguments are called "appeals to ignorance" and are inherently flawed.
Don't let anyone tell you otherwise: the scientific method is not that something is false until proven otherwise. The scientific method is that nothing can be truly known about a subject until there is some evidence to support a theory on it.
Similarly, if you want to prove something is false, it's not the other person's job to try and prove it true first. If you want to prove it false, prove it false on your own.
That person's an idiot!
Congratulations, you've just failed to prove your point.
Whether an argument is right or not doesn't depend on how smart the person saying it is, nor what other things they believe. An argument is right or wrong based on the merits of its logic.
So if you feel the need to call someone an idiot, save it for when you've dazzlingly disproven their argument. It's not a counter-argument on its own.
But so-and-so says...?
No, that doesn't work as an argument.
Unless the person you're using as justification for being right also happens to bring a well-reasoned argument to the table (which you provide for everyone else's benefit), the fact that a person you admire said something doesn't mean that it's right.
Remember: "can" and "do" are two different things
Just because something can happen doesn't mean it will happen or is happening.
Although this kind of argument may not come to a false conclusion ("Relic can release a sequel to Dawn of War, thus they will"), the argument itself is fundamentally flawed. Just because the capability for something to happen exists doesn't mean it will be used or will automatically happen.
Godwin's Law? What's the deal with that?
Godwin's Law, in general terms, states:
As a discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
Chances are that if you make a reference to Nazis or Hitler (in a topic not otherwise about them), some idiot will respond with something like "Godwin's Law, I win". The basic premise of this argument is that when someone resorts to mentioning Nazis, they've lost the argument.
This is actually flawed shortcut logic. Godwin's Law is not about winning or losing a discussion. It's about whether an argument has gone on too long.
In practical terms:
• If someone brings up Nazis in a thread not otherwise related to the subject, the thread's probably gone off-topic.
• If someone uses the term "Nazis" as an insult (by comparing someone or their position to the Nazis), they've ceased arguing and have started flaming.
Either way, Godwin's Law is a specific-application guideline to whether the discussion needs reining in - so if you feel the need to bring up the Nazi party or Hitler, think very carefully about why you're doing it.
A final point to remember...
For every opinion there is someone yelling an equally loud opposite opinion.
P.S.
This would be very helpful to anyone trying to make a suggestion in the developer feedback (suggestions) forum and will (hopefully) make a moderator consider your idea before he comments on the likely hood that your suggestion will be brought into development. It also forces you to come up with a halfway decent thought before you post and helps you decide whether it is worth posting anyway.
[ This Message was edited by: Scorched Soul[+R] on 2010-11-03 14:38 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Scorched Soul[+R] on 2010-11-03 15:15 ]
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Eledore Massis [R33]
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: May 26, 2002
Posts: 2695
From: tsohlacoLocalhost
| Posted: 2010-11-03 15:05
While i agree with the whole list of things.
And that i myself often deviate from these standards
I wonder if stating these to this community would be of any help, to the people you are trying to help.
In the end, everything will stay the same..
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-11-03 23:59
Quote:
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On 2010-11-03 15:05, Eledore Massis [R33] wrote:
In the end, everything will stay the same..
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The game, or the people? 
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*FTL*Soulless
Marshal
Joined: June 25, 2010
Posts: 787
From: Dres-Kona
| Posted: 2010-11-04 00:07
Quote:
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On 2010-11-03 23:59, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
Quote:
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On 2010-11-03 15:05, Eledore Massis [R33] wrote:
In the end, everything will stay the same..
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The game, or the people?
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to an extent both will >.>
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-11-04 00:55
You guys are idiots.
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2010-11-04 03:48
Quote:
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A final point to remember...
For every opinion there is someone yelling an equally loud opposite opinion.
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As I would never really say (or post, for that matter),
[ This Message was edited by: Grand Cannon Boomshot on 2010-11-04 03:48 ]
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It also forces you to come up with a halfway decent thought before you post and helps you decide whether it is worth posting anyway.
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Guess what? Countermanding these points is really hard. Your point stays unharmed from me...for now...
[ This Message was edited by: Grand Cannon Boomshot on 2010-11-04 07:03 ]
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Okkam
Marshal
Joined: February 06, 2008
Posts: 157
From: Dorset
| Posted: 2010-11-04 06:08
+1
If you want to get noticed more, read this.
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Subtilizer
Grand Admiral
Faster than Light
Joined: February 20, 2010
Posts: 122
| Posted: 2010-11-04 12:17
I think they should make reading this a requirement to post on the fourm , this and another couple topics maybe even a small "choose an answer" test really would cut down on bad topics and posting.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2010-11-04 13:06
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On 2010-11-04 12:17, Chaoticstorm wrote:
I think they should make reading this a requirement to post on the fourm , this and another couple topics maybe even a small "choose an answer" test really would cut down on bad topics and posting.
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Nazi Hitler.
-Ent
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Julian Delphiki
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 19, 2002
Posts: 171
| Posted: 2010-11-04 14:47
Quote:
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On 2010-11-04 12:17, Chaoticstorm wrote:
I think they should make reading this a requirement to post on the fourm , this and another couple topics maybe even a small "choose an answer" test really would cut down on bad topics and posting.
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Was just going to link to this particular xkcd comic, but it had a word that is against the DS rules, so I pixelated to share 
Mouseover reads:
And what about all the people who won't be able to join the community because they're terrible at making helpful and constructive co-- ... oh.
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