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In light of recent changes.... |
Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
|  Posted: 2010-05-30 09:55
Everyone who has played in the last two years knows that I have tried to get the human factions to realize how effective eccm ping and beacons really are vs K'Luth. I've even gone as far as to spend countless hours getting my brothers killed to prove the point.
I always pointed out how a simple scout can nullify an entire fleet of K'Luth.
Well, if nothing else, the addition of sheer numbers to the human factions have made eccm as effective as it always has been. We are seeing way more teams of scout/dictor combos. This is a good thing. I like seeing it. Now people understand that we arent all invincible.
However, it still brings up the one point I tried to make even then ; a single scout can nullify an entire fleet of K'Luth. Now, with all the EW slots added to so many ships, and so many ships in general, its really getting bad.
Even when we are outnumbered, we still have to have the cloak to avoid death. With the numbers of eccm on ships we face now, and the addition of all the eccm pings, it isnt an option most of the time.
Now, I could go more in to detail, but I think the people who need to really understand what I am pointing out do.
I have a few ideas for solutions. If something isnt done, I really am convinced that K'Luth will basically be a nullified faction.
1. limit the number of eccm slots on the cruisers and dreads to lower numbers. With the addition of so many more pilots, the added eccm from when the game was virtually depopulated is no longer needed. We should revert it back to previous limits in my honest opinion.
2. Remove weapon leveling from K'Luth ships. We are meant to be a hit and run faction, but our best ship is a Krill - not the right ship. Look at our ships overall, and what we are designed to do doesnt hit the ship packages we currently have.
Take back the Krill and the Brood. Return Gang to its former glory and remove the missle dread/bomber dread from the hit and run faction. Unlevel the weapons so that the cruisers and dessies can do what they are meant to.
The addaptation for all the beacons and eccm is a smaller ship. But even in packs, we cant take down more than 1 enemy dread without losing virtually every ship on the attack. By unleveling the weapons, you can then tweak their abilities by tweaking the number of weapons on the ship itself. We are currently facing packs of cruisers and dreads, which is what we should be able to handle no problem. Unfortunately, even though our dessies and cruisers are supposedly the best, they simply do not compare to the TC, HC, and the AC.
This is just an effort to bring the conversation about. I'd like to see if the idea has any merit with those who understand how we are supposed to be designed for play.
Also, the other thing I would point out is that the game is constantly evolving to bring better attacks and defense for the human factions, but Kluth is getting pushed further and further in for combat. Not a problem if we can use our more fluid ships, but this is asking too much if we are supposed to go into 30 eccm ping slots (on ships) and a dictor and a scout and expect that we even have a chance. Its that the three things are happening at once that is making this a valid point in my eyes: the increase in the player base, the buffings of the humans, and the range nerfing of some of our ships. (for the record, I have no problem with us losing range. I want the appropriate tradeoff in damage tho.)
Anyways, I would like opins. Keep clean. If u have ideas of your own, fire away. Im just predicting that things for luth have changed more than most realize at this point, and I would like to take steps to avoid a terrible slide if possible.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-05-30 10:22
I'm basically in full agreement (except about the Gang, I like my Kluth missile dread  ). I've never been a fan of weapon and gadget autoleveling, and always been a fan of ship specialization which means scouts and frigates get the sensor equipment.
The counter argument to removal of autoleveling of gadgets will be, like it has been, that smaller ships would become too powerful vs dreads, and that we will wind up with high ranks in small ships. Personally I have no problem with that. I preferred the days when the most popular ships were cruisers and destroyers, but that's me. I'm not a fan of this current system where theoretically 2 ships of previous class can beat next higher class because we all know ingame it doesn't work that way. 2 destroyers might be able to beat a cruiser, but 2 cruisers aren't gonna beat a dread unless it's a missile dread or unenhanced, or the cruisers are UGTO torp cruisers.
What's the counter argument to only giving scouts and frigates ecm and eccm? That people would have to rely on other ships, smaller ships, for an effective fleet? That's the heart of every MMO, specialized characters/ships/whatever all bringing their unique abilities to the group. Characters/ships/whatever that can do it all are seen in single player games like The Elder Scrolls. Give scouts and frigates ecm and eccm, and remove it from every other ship except perhaps missile ships.
Problem is there's no way to counter pinging. In the old days when eccm simply made Kluth visible, ecm would hide them. Now they don't become visible, but it's easy to just fire in their direction when pinging.
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2010-05-30 11:14
The problem with Kluth and DS Balance in general is that it seems to not be synergetic at all. You have ICC, the long-range defensive faction, and UGTO, the close-range faction with heavy armor, and Kluth, the close-range faction with cloak (instead of heavy armor). ICC/UGTO Balance is fairly balanced (for the most part), which is why UGTO and ICC love playing vs eachother. However, Kluth throws a wrench into the works, being less effective vs UGTO (as close range is also their specialty, and they have the heavy armor to boot), while being obnoxiously effective vs ICC (because Kluth can simply nullify their dictors, missiles, and fighters with cloak).
As ICC, for example, my personal experiance is that Kluth wipe the floor with ICC, with the only exceptions being when ICC outnumbers Kluth 5:1. I also believe this is the reason why Lark posted those balance concerns about Kluth, because ICC really do have a hard time fighting Kluth.
Another balance concern is that fighting Kluth absolutly requires a mixed fleet of beacon ships, dictors, and combat ships, while more often than not I see the Kluth fleet in all Krills, or all Krills and Siphons, the only cruiser I ever see is the minelaying one, and the only time I see Kluth in scouts, frigates, or dessys are either when the kluth player in question is messing around, or does not have the rank to fly anything bigger.
Also, I do NOT miss the days of pilots flying nothing but frigates and dessies. You guys do realize that the 481-483 period is when Darkspace hemmoraged most of its playerbase, right?
[ This Message was edited by: Leopard on 2010-05-30 11:21 ]
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Sens [R33]
Admiral
Joined: September 27, 2008
Posts: 1020
From: Edge of th...
| Posted: 2010-05-30 11:18
Last time I checked a beacon doesn't stop 8 siphons from killing everything in sight.
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Winters Rapture
Fleet Admiral
United Nations Space Command
Joined: December 09, 2007
Posts: 355
| Posted: 2010-05-30 11:29
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On 2010-05-30 11:14, Leopard wrote:
The problem with Kluth and DS Balance in general is that it seems to not be synergetic at all. You have ICC, the long-range defensive faction, and UGTO, the close-range faction with heavy armor, and Kluth, the close-range faction with cloak (instead of heavy armor). ICC/UGTO Balance is fairly balanced (for the most part), which is why UGTO and ICC love playing vs eachother. However, Kluth throws a wrench into the works, being less effective vs UGTO (as close range is also their specialty, and they have the heavy armor to boot), while being obnoxiously effective vs ICC (because Kluth can simply nullify their dictors, missiles, and fighters with cloak).
As ICC, for example, my personal experiance is that Kluth wipe the floor with ICC, with the only exceptions being when ICC outnumbers Kluth 5:1. I also believe this is the reason why Lark posted those balance concerns about Kluth, because ICC really do have a hard time fighting Kluth.
Another balance concern is that fighting Kluth absolutly requires a mixed fleet of beacon ships, dictors, and combat ships, while more often than not I see the Kluth fleet in all Krills, or all Krills and Siphons, the only cruiser I ever see is the minelaying one, and the only time I see Kluth in scouts, frigates, or dessys are either when the kluth player in question is messing around, or does not have the rank to fly anything bigger.
Also, I do NOT miss the days of pilots flying nothing but frigates and dessies. You guys do realize that the 481-483 period is when Darkspace hemmoraged most of its playerbase, right?
[ This Message was edited by: Leopard on 2010-05-30 11:21 ]
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This.
/Signed
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Jar Jar Binks
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 556
| Posted: 2010-05-30 11:51
Azreal, i don't think making K'luth even more powerful then they are will solve anything. it will just mean that ppl will change their FOTM ships from krills to dessys or cruisers and ppl will whine about that instead because they will be even harder to hit.
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Sops
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 490
| Posted: 2010-05-30 12:07
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On 2010-05-30 11:14, Leopard wrote:
Another balance concern is that fighting Kluth absolutly requires a mixed fleet of beacon ships, dictors, and combat ships, while more often than not I see the Kluth fleet in all Krills, or all Krills and Siphons, the only cruiser I ever see is the minelaying one, and the only time I see Kluth in scouts, frigates, or dessys are either when the kluth player in question is messing around, or does not have the rank to fly anything bigger.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-05-30 12:22
I think it'd be a good idea to have specialized ships for EW and replace the EW slots on most ships that don't fit the role with something else like extra generators or PD. However, if this is done it might also be good to put Scanners as separate systems and not be interchangeable with ECM/ECCM like it is currently, scanners are invaluable on Bombers/Carriers to target structures without having to get within a few hundred GU of a planet to see them and on picket ships to find minefields.
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-Daedalus-
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 26, 2006
Posts: 549
| Posted: 2010-05-30 12:32
Just get rid of the Kluth it will solve all the problems.
And platforms should be able to stand upto attacks better. I just watched a kluth dread kill one after 1 full blast.
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Sauur
Chief Marshal
Praetorian Wolves
Joined: November 30, 2004
Posts: 475
| Posted: 2010-05-30 13:22
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On 2010-05-30 12:32, Daedalus wrote:
I just watched a kluth dread kill one after 1 full blast.
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WTH is it with u peon's and what u thought u saw. Swap factions take out a bl'dy platform with one hit with a dread and then post. Put some bl'dy facts up!
Until then ... !
Sick of copping nerfs çause u fill'n ur pants with fudge over what u 'think' u know!
Edit: "oops typed a bad word""
[ This Message was edited by: Sauur on 2010-05-30 13:25 ]
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2010-05-30 13:28
I think the problem that arises from these sort of threads is "perspective" - from the view of one side, a specific attribute can be really powerful, yet from another it can be... lacking.
Cloak looks powerful when you're against it, but when you have it it really feels close sometimes, and difficult to properly cloak away due to ECCM pinging - and kids, it's no fun taking eight seconds to uncloak before firing, you usually break into hull before anything.
I do find the amount of ECCM rather extensive, and a decrease of functionality, at least for the big ships, would be a welcome addition. This would encourage the use of small ships, although without the grouping system in place it is still a decision a player makes to be an asset rather than gain prestige.
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$yTHe {C?}
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: September 29, 2002
Posts: 1292
From: Arlington, VA
| Posted: 2010-05-30 14:03
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On 2010-05-30 11:18, Sens wrote:
Last time I checked a beacon doesn't stop 8 siphons from killing everything in sight.
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Derp.
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2010-05-30 14:44
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On 2010-05-30 13:28, Bardiche wrote:
I think the problem that arises from these sort of threads is "perspective" - from the view of one side, a specific attribute can be really powerful, yet from another it can be... lacking.
Cloak looks powerful when you're against it, but when you have it it really feels close sometimes, and difficult to properly cloak away due to ECCM pinging - and kids, it's no fun taking eight seconds to uncloak before firing, you usually break into hull before anything.
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The problem I see is that more often than not, the Kluth do not need to cloak vs ICC once they get close enough. UGTO is probably a different story, and I do not know enough about Kluth/UGTO encounters to really say anything regarding that, but ICC will reliably lose in a straight up close-range knife fight vs Kluth, oftentimes with rediculous consequences (All ICC ships being killed or hulled, a few Kluth ships are hulled and none are killed). This is primarily due to flawed design in ICC being a long-ranged faction, and Kluth being given a tool that completely nullifies that long-range advantage and allows them to get nice and close, right into the ICC's weak spot.
However, a change has to be done that specifically affects Kluth vs ICC, without drastically affecting Kluth/UGTO Balance or UGTO/ICC Balance (although its entirely possible that Kluth needs a buff vs UGTO, as I said before, I do not know), this is rather difficult to do, but not impossible. I have some ideas, but I would like to gather more data before sharing them.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-05-30 14:48
i do agree that as the player base grows ECCM should start to be stripped from the mid-range vessels (cruisers and dreads). Having it on a support station makes a certain amount of sense, and hopefully the station-space issue will be fixed so as to make it a balanced proposition.
the only problem i see there is that it encourages ICC and UGTO to have pilots flying frigates... and kluth are encouraged to fly what exactly? the principle issue is that for ICC and UGTO to fight kluth we have to field supply ships and sensor frigates versus siphons and scarabs etc. theres no reason for kluth to take correspondingly small vessels.
as for removing leveling, thats a daft idea. dont you remember when kluth dessies could take down dreads? that was terrible and shouldnt return.
as an aside, i think perhaps we should break the factions down into a rock-paper-scissors approach to balance: defense, offense, and energy. ICC are defense-oriented with poor offense and energy, luth are offense-oriented with poor defense and energy, and UGTO are energy-oriented with moderate defense and offense. poor energy means defense and offense can not be sustained for very long, whereas good energy on UGTOs part means they can maintain moderate offense and defense to counter the other 2 factions long enough for it to be effective.
[ This Message was edited by: Lark of Serenity on 2010-05-30 14:55 ]
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-05-30 14:57
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On 2010-05-30 14:44, Leopard wrote:
However, a change has to be done that specifically affects Kluth vs ICC, without drastically affecting Kluth/UGTO Balance or UGTO/ICC Balance (although its entirely possible that Kluth needs a buff vs UGTO, as I said before, I do not know), this is rather difficult to do, but not impossible. I have some ideas, but I would like to gather more data before sharing them.
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Add more energy resistance to shields?
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