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Regarding the latest Dev Log update... |
MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
|  Posted: 2009-12-14 20:29
Quote:
| - Armor and Shields should now have the correct damage multipliers for combination damage types (IE Psi AND Energy Damage, or Kinetic AND Psi). Previously only one type of damage was being checked, often negating the resistance for the other type. |
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So what exactly is the current bug? Is it that weapons with multiple damage types aren't being reduced at all, or is it that they're being reduced too much?
Example: Plasma cannon does both kinetic and energy damage. Do shields currently not reduce that damage at all because of it's kinetic portion, or are they reducing too much because of it's energy portion (essentially thinking plasma are 100% energy)?
I'm just wondering if we can expect a damage increase or damage decrease after this. Seems the way I thought damage types worked vs damage-reducing armors and shields isn't how it works at all.
How does a damage type like energy + psi now get reduced, considering psi has no armor or shields that reduce it? Again, I thought it was supposed to work where only the energy portion of it's damage would be reduced by shields and reflective, but the psi portion is unaffected (say a ratio of 50% energy damage and 50% psi damage, and shields would reduce that 50% energy damage by 25%; the 50% from psi would be unaffected).
I like how it's finally being fixed! Just curious how it's gonna work now, because it may make a big difference in the weapons I choose to use. I have a feeling it doesn't work at all the way I thought 
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2009-12-14 20:32 ]
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Sens [R33]
Admiral
Joined: September 27, 2008
Posts: 1020
From: Edge of th...
| Posted: 2009-12-14 20:37
Magically.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2009-12-14 23:10
Huh? Is this another one of those "secrets" the devs don't want anyone to know about?
I want to know if plasma cannons might become worth using, or if they're gonna become even worse and nobody will use them. The last sentence about 'negating the resistance for the other type' makes it sound like damage wasn't being reduced at all, so now I'm wondering if some of our weapons will be doing less damage.
'Negating the resistance for the other type' I read as 'negating the resistance of armor or shields for the other type of damage that that armor or shields should reduce, since it's being considered the non-reduced type'
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2009-12-14 23:20 ]
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Sens [R33]
Admiral
Joined: September 27, 2008
Posts: 1020
From: Edge of th...
| Posted: 2009-12-14 23:20
The changes are noticeable, why don't you find out for yourself?
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2009-12-14 23:35
I'd rather the Dev Log be a little clearer about these kinds of changes personally. It doesn't really explain what the fix will do, and it doesn't really explain what's wrong currently. I mean I can also read the explanation of what's wrong currently as armor and shields are randomly choosing 1 of the multiple damage types, which means often times it's the type that's not reduced, but sometimes times it is. If plasma hits a shield sometimes it counts as kinetic and sometimes as energy.
So like I asked, what happens when it's both damage types now? Don't say "check it out in beta" because I'd need to test the current version first, take notes, then go to beta and try to test there with all those AI getting in the way and no shipyards available etc. It's so much easier for the person who's doing the fix to just say what it is in the Dev Log.
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Sens [R33]
Admiral
Joined: September 27, 2008
Posts: 1020
From: Edge of th...
| Posted: 2009-12-14 23:49
From what you are saying, you don't know all too much about the current system, so there is little point in telling you changes when there is no origin for you to reference. DS isn't a number game, learn through experience.
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2009-12-15 00:25
Quote:
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On 2009-12-14 23:49, Sens wrote:
From what you are saying, you don't know all too much about the current system, so there is little point in telling you changes when there is no origin for you to reference. DS isn't a number game, learn through experience.
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(actualy i dont think i'll say that-iwanni)
[ This Message was edited by: iwanii the top gear Gaifen on 2009-12-15 00:28 ]
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2009-12-15 04:12
Yep. Goes right back to the issue of making changes w/o really saying what it is they are doing.
Is it that big of a deal really? Is it some deep dark top secret information that we must have hidden from us?
Nobody is talking about playing numbers. Just trying to get an idea of what is being changed.
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-Daedalus-
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 26, 2006
Posts: 549
| Posted: 2009-12-15 06:09
Quote:
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On 2009-12-14 23:49, Sens wrote:
From what you are saying, you don't know all too much about the current system, so there is little point in telling you changes when there is no origin for you to reference. DS isn't a number game, learn through experience.
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Just answer the damn question and stop trying to tip toe around it. Or is it that YOU don't know the answer so you are refusing to give an answer. If thats the case don't even post and let someone else answer it who does know or at least someone who has a clue which by your posts you do not.
People were told to ask questions so now they are asking so bloody well give them an answer or find someone who can. Geez.
[ This Message was edited by: --Daedalus-- on 2009-12-15 06:24 ]
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2009-12-15 06:51
Yeah, I have to agree with the upset questioners. You're just being obtuse and annoying. Either provide an answer or come up with a reasonable explanation why you're not. All this is accomplishing is pissing people (more) off.
I'll look at the code in question and provide one tonight if nobody beats me to it.
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JBud
Marshal
Joined: February 26, 2008
Posts: 1900
From: Behind you.
| Posted: 2009-12-15 06:52
Quote:
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On 2009-12-15 06:51, Shigernafy wrote:
Yeah, I have to agree with the upset questioners. You're just being obtuse and annoying. Either provide an answer or come up with a reasonable explanation why you're not. All this is accomplishing is pissing people (more) off.
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I completely agree, I don't see much point in not explaining it so I will attempt to do so:
Basically, if a weapon is, for example, psi, energy, and kenetic (not saying we really have weapons doing three amounts of damage this is a hypothetical weapon) it would have some strange effects on an armor like, for example, reflective armor...
Reflective armor gets extra damage from kenetic type, reduces damage from energy type, and gets regular damage from psi type, so the damage would be reduced and increased and not changed all at the same time, not giving much benefit to using the armor... with the fix it will now work correctly.
If you look at the log entry, specifically, "Psi AND Energy Damage, or Kinetic AND Psi" it's basically meaning if it is psi and energy against reflective armor it would be reduced by half the normal reduction. (since psi does standard damage to reflective) if it was energy against reflective it would get the normal reduction, ect.. before it would check for something like "Kenetic OR Energy," so when it was psi and energy it would be reduced by the normal energy reduction amount.
To break it all down it means that shields/armor will now reduce the damage they are strong against a bit more accurately than before...
[ This Message was edited by: The Red-Nosed Dreadnought on 2009-12-15 06:56 ]
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Jar Jar Binks
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 556
| Posted: 2009-12-15 07:12
Quote:
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On 2009-12-15 06:52, The Red-Nosed Dreadnought wrote:
Quote:
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On 2009-12-15 06:51, Shigernafy wrote:
Yeah, I have to agree with the upset questioners. You're just being obtuse and annoying. Either provide an answer or come up with a reasonable explanation why you're not. All this is accomplishing is pissing people (more) off.
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I completely agree, I don't see much point in not explaining it so I will attempt to do so:
Basically, if a weapon is, for example, psi, energy, and kenetic (not saying we really have weapons doing three amounts of damage this is a hypothetical weapon) it would have some strange effects on an armor like, for example, reflective armor...
Reflective armor gets extra damage from kenetic type, reduces damage from energy type, and gets regular damage from psi type, so the damage would be reduced and increased and not changed all at the same time, not giving much benefit to using the armor... with the fix it will now work correctly.
If you look at the log entry, specifically, "Psi AND Energy Damage, or Kinetic AND Psi" it's basically meaning if it is psi and energy against reflective armor it would be reduced by half the normal reduction. (since psi does standard damage to reflective) if it was energy against reflective it would get the normal reduction, ect.. before it would check for something like "Kenetic OR Energy," so when it was psi and energy it would be reduced by the normal energy reduction amount.
To break it all down it means that shields/armor will now reduce the damage they are strong against a bit more accurately than before...
[ This Message was edited by: The Red-Nosed Dreadnought on 2009-12-15 06:56 ]
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2009-12-15 07:38
This doesn't effect *all* weapons mind, but torpedeos against reflective plating will probably be the most noticeable when it goes live
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Jar Jar Binks
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 556
| Posted: 2009-12-15 07:41
Quote:
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On 2009-12-15 07:38, Fattierob the Lobby Piercer wrote:
This doesn't effect *all* weapons mind, but torpedeos against reflective plating will probably be the most noticeable when it goes live
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not SI's? 
krills are getting annoying now :/
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2009-12-16 00:21
Quote:
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On 2009-12-15 07:38, Fattierob the Lobby Piercer wrote:
This doesn't effect *all* weapons mind, but torpedeos against reflective plating will probably be the most noticeable when it goes live
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(Long reply ahead! Sorry. This just seems a very important change to the game that might change our weapon choices so I'd like them to be clear for everyone to see)
Thanks Shig and Bud It's a little clearer now. How about this though: If psi + energy will be reduced by half the normal amount vs reflective like it should be, what about kinetic + energy, since kinetic gets a bonus? Reflective would have neither a bonus nor a penalty to it since the reduction of energy would be offset by the increase of kinetic? I'm assuming that's not what's currently happening (I'm not actually sure what the problem is currently with kinetic + energy weapons vs reflective or ablative or shields)
Or is the intent of a weapon with kinetic + energy to be reduced by specialized armors? I think my confusion comes from not knowing if damage being kinetic + energy is supposed to be a benefit or a drawback. I always thought it was a benefit, since the resistance to one type is offset by the penalty to the other type, meaing it's the better option when you don't know what type of armor you'll be up against, or vs ablative if you know for a fact that's what's being used. Obviously though it never worked that way, so I was wrong.
I do have to wonder too about torpedoes vs reflective? I think SI will be a little more damaging vs reflective and shields after this since part of it's damage is psi, but torpedoes? I never knew there was a problem with them vs specialized armors and shields. I always figured they were kinetic weapons; I think most players did. That's one of the reasons AM torps were being suggested by ICC vs their new shields (the "get out of your krills and start using siphons" suggestion from ICC/Kluth thread, which sounded fine at the time).
I might have to jump into beta anyway to test all this, when I get the time. I actually have more questions than I think can (or will) be answered here I really want to know if torpedoes will have a damage increase or damage decrease, if plasma will be worth using, and if psi cannons will get a good enough damage boost that plasma would never be chosen anyway. I'm not aware of other weapons with multiple damage types to test.
EDIT: BTW, Ion cannons are also kinetic + energy, so ICC might be even more affected by this than Kluth, since Kluth rarely use plasma, not to mention it might affect UGTO's armor choice. Like I said, this change has a lot of potential implications ingame.
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2009-12-16 00:34 ]
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