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ICC/Kluth |
Hell Bender
Grand Admiral
K'Luth Revolution
Joined: April 30, 2002
Posts: 117
From: Knoxville, Maryland USA
|  Posted: 2009-11-30 12:25
Okay, here goes (I'm bracing for the hate).
A month ago, everyone was screaming for the nerf bat on kluth and requests for strengthening ICC. The reasons were simple; ICC was perceieved as dying and the kluth as overpowered by far. In a way, both sides of the argument had valid points, yet the reasons were varied.
ICC (and some might say UGTO) was/were dying as a result of people veiwing kluth as supreme due to the dominance presented in the MV in terms of holding a vast majority of Sag for long durations, or in terms of the battle tactics used by the kluth that would easily destroy anything in thier path. The tactis though, many veiwed as the over powering of the kluth ships and the ability to cloak, giving them what is often reffered to as a "get out of jail free card". Kluth saw it as tactical, all ammasing fire on a single target to maximize damage and there by shorten the length of the engagement as a whole.
With all the complaints, the dev's opted to try to resolve such issues by increasing the resistance to the kluth weapons for the ICC and in this, they were successful, if only in increasing the resistance. This in turn pushed more players toward ICC, and brought about a rich player base for the ICC to try to regain thier prestigious stance in the DS community. This is where the problem now is.
ICC has numbers, vast numbers in comparison to Kluth and UGTO now. People are moving to ICC who are unfleeted at an unprecidented rate. This has allowed two things to happen. First, ICC has the ability now to ping K'luth and kill them as they are cloaked and trying to get out of the combat zone. This was somewhat doable before, but not at the level it is now because with such numbers. This is a good thing, it shows with numbers in a MMO (who would have thought in a MMO having more than 2 people on your team would make a difference) are what makes the team viable. The drawback to this is not in the players doing, but in the Dev's.
With the 25% increase in energy resistance, the numbers, the ability to ping, the ability to 'observe' a K'Luth ship whether cloaked or not and there by being able to fire on it no matter what is done is the problem.
Kluth love the numbers, we have a fight now, we like the ability for ICC to ping us, it gives them the ability to counter the cloak and feel sure enough to fight. These are good things, but the K'luth can no longer do anything to counter the ICC. Our weapons barely scratch any ICC ship, even with 3 Krills firing on the same arc, full alphas, they barely make it to the armor before they must withdraw. ICC on the other hand can use two dreads in the same fashion and in two alpha's make it to the hull of a krill and cause serious harm. While the ICC SHOULD be able to hurt the K'Luth in such an extreme fashion, the K'luth should not be restricted in damage as much as they are. Then there are the missles. Missles are good, the arc bug is bad. While it has been OK'd by the big F man himself, it should be considered into the equation when buffing the ICC.
The reason I don't mention UGTO is they are fine, maybe a tweek here and there, but all around they are what they should be. Yet with the way it is set currently, the UGTO have been allying themselves with the K'luth because of the ICC's superior numbers and the ineffectiveness of both sides in fighting the ICC.
Also, notice the amount of K'luth hate has dropped off drastically. Why? Well, why would you complain if you are winning? Why complain if you have what you want? The problem then comes in that the nerf bat is going to once again be used on the K'Luth (Beta atm) and this will lead to the death of K'luth, forcing a new nerf bat on some side, or the buff bat on another.
I am not fully speculating on the death of K'luth either. Many prominant K'luth members are no longer interested in the play. It's not because there is a new big kid on the block, we all agree we like a challenege, yet this has become more like Mike Tyson fighting a feather weight. Many are waiting for thier subs to run out, then renewal will not occur until things are rectified.
Why do it this way? Simple. Players who do not play, or are unsubbed speak loudly, they get things changed and still don't play, or sub. We feel that if we do the same, it will better serve us. We won't pay for something we are being pushed out of by those who I mentioned above.
K'Luth had a good run, and as said before, we like the new challenege, but it has become impossible for K'Luth AND UGTO alike. The 25% energy resistance has forced the issue, and UGTO without the numbers can do nothing either.
If I repeated myself, sorry. I do not speak for everyone, just the many I've spoken with on every side, including ICC. If I am wrong on a fact or two, I appoligize and would appreciate a correction that is not hateful, but helpful to the concerns and this thread. Thanks.
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If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it.
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2009-11-30 12:34
A wonderful post. However, this section seems to stand out to me
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With the 25% increase in energy resistance, the numbers, the ability to ping, the ability to 'observe' a K'Luth ship whether cloaked or not and there by being able to fire on it no matter what is done is the problem.
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The latter problem, the ability to 'observe' a K'luth ship......what are you speaking of? Are you speaking of ctrl+clicking in space and firing, or of some kind of bug/glitch/circumvention of normal camera operations?
edit: Also, when the nerf/buff bat is swung, it's sometimes swung too hard. I'm sure everybody is watching the end results closely, and if 25% is deemed too much of a resistence change, then it (will/might/should) change
[ This Message was edited by: Slightly Excellent Royal Duke Fattierob on 2009-11-30 12:36 ]
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Jar Jar Binks
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 556
| Posted: 2009-11-30 12:45
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On 2009-11-30 12:34, Slightly Excellent Royal Duke Fattierob wrote:
A wonderful post. However, this section seems to stand out to me
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With the 25% increase in energy resistance, the numbers, the ability to ping, the ability to 'observe' a K'Luth ship whether cloaked or not and there by being able to fire on it no matter what is done is the problem.
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The latter problem, the ability to 'observe' a K'luth ship......what are you speaking of? Are you speaking of ctrl+clicking in space and firing, or of some kind of bug/glitch/circumvention of normal camera operations?
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probably looking at the game from the observe part, before you pick a side when you log on.
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Ants
Chief Marshal
Joined: February 11, 2005
Posts: 315
From: Canada
| Posted: 2009-11-30 12:46
Stop Using all Krills, They are almost all energy weapons.
Siphs are good against ICC nice mix up of projectile and energy weapons.
Stop fighting ICC like UGTO they are not. Never were supposed to be.
Yes ICC is a bit tougher now. And YES the population is high, we can try and balance them again... perhaps the admins to do something to make no fleet players balanced. Another way to get ppl to subscribe for fleets ļ
Alot of ICC went to luth when they were uber and owned everything, because they didn¡¦t like losing... ppl came back because they were always ICC before or they switch around.
and better yet. The Dev's will look over what needs to be done. when they come up with something... GO to Beta and test it, before release.
[ This Message was edited by: Fatal Ants *XO* on 2009-11-30 12:46 ]
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2009-11-30 13:37
Somebody help!
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Hell Bender
Grand Admiral
K'Luth Revolution
Joined: April 30, 2002
Posts: 117
From: Knoxville, Maryland USA
| Posted: 2009-11-30 14:04
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The latter problem, the ability to 'observe' a K'luth ship......what are you speaking of? Are you speaking of ctrl+clicking in space and firing, or of some kind of bug/glitch/circumvention of normal camera operations?
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F2 screen, can see kluth even cloaked, hold ctrl, set point, fire. Cloak is Cloak, it was to be a total cloak, either totally on or totally off. Noise is different, but here is another post that validates said point. I could care less about the noise, but seeing me? no. bad.
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On 2009-11-29 12:21, $yTHe {C?} wrote:
Use dictors, plus even if they cloak you can still see the fire. PLUS you can hear Kluth ships moving, which is interesting given that you shouldn't be able to hear any sound in space that isn't vibrating off of your own hull but whatever.
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If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it.
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Ants
Chief Marshal
Joined: February 11, 2005
Posts: 315
From: Canada
| Posted: 2009-11-30 14:30
[quote]
On 2009-11-30 14:04, Hell Bender wrote:
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F2 screen, can see kluth even cloaked, hold ctrl, set point, fire. Cloak is Cloak, it was to be a total cloak, either totally on or totally off. Noise is different, but here is another post that validates said point. I could care less about the noise, but seeing me? no. bad.
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I hope you are not talking about you can see cloak ships as being Luth. I can not see cloaked ships via F2 nav map.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2009-11-30 14:58
Tested it. No u cant.
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bucket link
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Jar Jar Binks
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 556
| Posted: 2009-11-30 15:17
Quote:
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On 2009-11-30 14:04, Hell Bender wrote:
F2 screen, can see kluth even cloaked, hold ctrl, set point, fire. Cloak is Cloak, it was to be a total cloak, either totally on or totally off. Noise is different, but here is another post that validates said point. I could care less about the noise, but seeing me? no. bad.
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thats news to me, i cant and i've tried it more then a few times as F2 can be dodgy at times 
F2 CAN however show ICC/UGTO ships after a friendly has been near them and left again.
but it wont work when k'luth have cloaked.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2009-11-30 16:00
Quote:
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On 2009-11-30 12:46, Fatal Ants *XO* wrote:
Stop Using all Krills, They are almost all energy weapons.
Siphs are good against ICC nice mix up of projectile and energy weapons.
Stop fighting ICC like UGTO they are not. Never were supposed to be.
Yes ICC is a bit tougher now. And YES the population is high, we can try and balance them again... perhaps the admins to do something to make no fleet players balanced. Another way to get ppl to subscribe for fleets ļ
Alot of ICC went to luth when they were uber and owned everything, because they didn¡¦t like losing... ppl came back because they were always ICC before or they switch around.
and better yet. The Dev's will look over what needs to be done. when they come up with something... GO to Beta and test it, before release.
[ This Message was edited by: Fatal Ants *XO* on 2009-11-30 12:46 ]
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The only Kluth ship that has enough non-energy projectile weapons is the ganglia, which I'm personally a fan of, but also know it's a terrible ship when outnumbered due to Kluth's very weak armor. The siphon and mandible have some projectiles, but most of their damage is energy-based. The entire faction's damage is energy-based.
That's why I say the 25% resistance to energy is really a 25% resistance to Kluth.
Player numbers aren't the problem. I like the increase in players, both in MV and scenario. I don't mind being outnumbered by ICC, since I remember days when it was even worse than this. The problem is the shield buff plus enhancements. 3 Krills firing on the same arc should get through in 1 alpha, maybe 2. That's 18 SI hitting the same arc. Shield rotating or no, it should not only destroy the shields on that arc, but punch through some of the armor.
With stock ships, the 25% resistance is probably nice and balanced. In fact it looks balanced according to the tests Fatal Ants conducted. Throw enhancements into the mix, and suddenly things aren't so balanced. I can bet that in a big scenario fight 3 krills firing on the same arc would do the damage they were meant to do. In the MV enhancements throw everything off balance, and not just shield/armor strength.
(insert another call for the removal of enhancements here  )
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Ants
Chief Marshal
Joined: February 11, 2005
Posts: 315
From: Canada
| Posted: 2009-11-30 16:06
wow closed minded...
lets put it this way.
you can cloak
we take 2-3 ships to bring our ships to 0 sig...
Adapt,
Use a mandi or a siph, do alot of damage with the torps and plasma cannons. move off, recharge, go back in, hit again. Play as Luth are meant to Play.
Yes your beams is a big portion of your damage... have a gang 800gus out to weaken our shields... There’s alot you can do.
And again hit and go. rinse and repeat.
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Sens [R33]
Admiral
Joined: September 27, 2008
Posts: 1020
From: Edge of th...
| Posted: 2009-11-30 16:15
I have to agree 25% is a bit outrageous, but ICC have always been able to ping and murder you when your cloaked. They just never had the numbers. If you are prowling right in the middle of an enemy fleet, you deserve to do regardless.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2009-11-30 16:25
Infact, Icc had to be boosted in afew months after the release. You see, the problem it isnt how much or who you boost, it is, you boost a faction after 8-9 months later from 1.5 first came out.
The problem is you(dev) force players base to play and adapt. You ask us to stop whine and play, then 8-9 months later you come and eat what u pooped .
ICC surely needed that boost, but cant be done more patethicly.
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* Josef hands [PB]Quantium the Golden GothThug award for best melodrama in a miniseries...
[-GTN-]BackSlash: "Azreal is a master of showing me what is horribly broken in the game."
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2009-11-30 16:51
Quote:
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On 2009-11-30 16:06, Fatal Ants *XO* wrote:
wow closed minded...
lets put it this way.
you can cloak
we take 2-3 ships to bring our ships to 0 sig...
Adapt,
Use a mandi or a siph, do alot of damage with the torps and plasma cannons. move off, recharge, go back in, hit again. Play as Luth are meant to Play.
Yes your beams is a big portion of your damage... have a gang 800gus out to weaken our shields... There’s alot you can do.
And again hit and go. rinse and repeat.
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Our cannons don't do much damage, our torps are highly inaccurate to a point where even a dread can dodge them, and staying uncloaked to fire multiple volleys of cannons from range is completely counter to the Kluth's design. Kluth do not have the armor to do that. And ICC are the kings of ranged combat, so it's really dumb to attempt it vs them.
Plasma cannons are half energy-based, so even they don't do the same damage anymore. I forget if PSI cannons are energy and PSI or kinetic and PSI (I'm not sure where to find that info in the ShipGadgetsBeta.ods file I have, or if it's even listed there).
What I'm saying is "playing as the KLuth are meant to play" (it's Kluth btw There's K at the beginning which changes the entire pronunciation) is firing powerful alphas then getting the hell out of there. And now those alphas are that much weaker vs ICC.
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Ants
Chief Marshal
Joined: February 11, 2005
Posts: 315
From: Canada
| Posted: 2009-11-30 17:06
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On 2009-11-30 16:51, MrSparkle wrote:
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Our cannons don't do much damage, our torps are highly inaccurate to a point where even a dread can dodge them, and staying uncloaked to fire multiple volleys of cannons from range is completely counter to the Kluth's design. Kluth do not have the armor to do that. And ICC are the kings of ranged combat, so it's really dumb to attempt it vs them.
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I quess if you dont know what you are doing this can be hard. Siph at 200gu - 150gu torps will hit. Get on there butt. Gang Decloak fire cloak. it takes some pratice but ealisly done.
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Plasma cannons are half energy-based, so even they don't do the same damage anymore. I forget if PSI cannons are energy and PSI or kinetic and PSI (I'm not sure where to find that info in the ShipGadgetsBeta.ods file I have, or if it's even listed there).
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I do know one of them are full and one of them are half and half. Use the full one.
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What I'm saying is "playing as the KLuth are meant to play" (it's Kluth btw There's K at the beginning which changes the entire pronunciation) is firing powerful alphas then getting the hell out of there. And now those alphas are that much weaker vs ICC.
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True,
What you expect 1 alpha and a dead ship?
I know K'Luth just as much as I know ICC. I have played much of my DS life on all factions under diffrent names. You do know going up against a BD with reflective armour gives alot of beam reduction damage. You know it takes 2 -3 krill alphas to hull a BD? guess what ICC is meant to be stronger then UGTO, and VERY strong on one ARC. Defence wise that is.
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