| Author |
Metaverse Ideas |
Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
|  Posted: 2009-01-07 21:40
Now with pictures! 
This is going to combine multiple ideas, some by me and some by others.
As it is currently, the Metaverse lacks structure. Oh sure, there are the different constellations--one home territory for each player faction, one for each NPC faction, the Newbie area, and the main battleground in Sagittarius. But they are essentially disconnected from each other, despite having inter-server jumpgates (or in Procyon's case, a wormhole) linking them. A faction's defeat in one server doesn't affect their capabilities in any other. The ICC have been persistently pushed out of Sagittarius, but have continued to conquer most of Procyon and a fair chunk in Rogen's Rift, and their home territories in Cassiopeia are totally untouched. The K'luth captured a planet in the UGTO home constellation of Lacerta but nobody's really noticed or done anything.
AI ships for the various factions run about fighting with no particularly clear purpose. They attempt to capture planets but often wind up sending troops into a meatgrinder and accomplish little, while draining their own planets of their garrisons. Newer players are stymied because most planets can easily fend off an attack by a Bomber Scout, Frigate or Destroyer, and it is difficult to land troops while the planet's defenses are up. And unless the AI Engineers are the only ones working on it, those planet defenses will almost always be uniformly top-level. Most planets are built pretty much the same, with only occasional deviations as circumstances dictate--sometimes you get a repair base with lots of depots, and of course there are the Shipyard worlds.
Players in this Metaverse wind up gravitating towards combat and often ignore planet-capturing entirely. In some cases this leads them to just fighting AI ships endlessly. They have no direction, no objective, no motivation towards a goal beyond shooting stuff. In the old Scenario servers, we had a single star system at a time. Some planets would be vital targets, that one faction or the other would need to capture to assure victory. Which faction won would determine what map came up next, and the players on the winning side would recieve a slight prestige bonus. They had a reason to fight, something to work towards. This is sorely lacking in the game now. The addition of Enhancements provides an incentive to actually fight, but nothing beyond that--they are a bonus instead of the ultimate goal.
In Vent the other day, Sardaukar described to me a logistics system, where planets would have a chain of supply all the way back to their homeworlds, which would be needed in order to maintain resources and tech levels across the Metaverse. Certain planets in each system would be marked as lynchpins in this chain, and holding them or taking them would become a crucial objective.
Awhile ago, not long after I started re-playing, I suggested an economy system where structures on planets required resources to function, with the level of income dependent on their tech level. Higher-tech planets would consume more resources than they could possibly produce, so a faction would require lower-tech mining colonies to support their core worlds. The low-tech colonies would be easier for low-ranking players to capture.
Currently, each NPC faction has a minimum number of planets they own in a given server. If they don't have enough, a planet will auto-revolt and join their side. In a discussion on AI just the other day, Fattierob proposed a mechanism where the AI spawns more ships depending on how many planets they control in a given server. As players capture more and more, they spawn more to fight back more fiercly, especially when there are only a few left.. but then the spawns drop off when the AIs are fully crushed.
And awhile ago, before the most recent Metaverse map was implemented, I suggested a map which had more out-lying systems that could provide a calmer playground for newbies and an alternate strategic option rather than bashing away at Sagittarius.
These are the concepts I will be combining here.
Planetary systems in the Metaverse will have an underlying logistics system. Certain planets will be designated as nodes in the system, with nodes arranged in chains leading across the galaxy. The homeworld of each faction--Earth for the UGTO (although technically I think their capitol is Mars), Sag Hothha for the K'luth, and Exathra for the ICC--will act as the origin of these nodes. From the origin, the logistics lines spread out to other key planets in the home systems, and from there to the jumpgates. In order for planets to function, they have to have an active connection to the homeworld. If that connection is broken, their resources and tech level will begin to decay and eventually they will be left with only what their Colony Hub can provide. They will also be cut off from interplanetary trade, which will flow along the logistic system.
Here's an example.
This is CD-36, the ICC home system. You can see Exathra circled in red, with the blue lines leading away from it. These are the logistical links, leading to other planets which then lead to the jumpgates which lead to other systems. In order for planets further down the line to function, at least one link must be maintained between them. You can see that in order to maintain the link through CD Gate 1, which leads to Ross 248, the ICC must hold either Exsagar, Ualeas or Aaya. To maintain the link through CD Gate 2, which leads to Tau Ceti, they need to hold onto Pangasic. To maintain the link through CD Gate 3, they need to hold either Ghadjwero or Illambic.
Every other planet will be tied to one of those. Minuete is right next to Exathra so it would have a direct link to the homeworld. Filioth and Lilly are nearest to Pangasic, so they would be dependent upon it. The same goes for the clusters in the outer system. If the node they are dependent on falls, they won't entirely shut down so long as the system is partially linked, but they will suffer a penalty.
Here's Tau Ceti, on the other side of CD Gate 2.
The link through the gate leads to Argrea, and then to either Areal or Farstay, and then to the last gate which leads to Kapetyn's Star. If Argrea falls, the whole system shuts down. If Areal falls, the link to Kapetyn's is maintaned through Farstay. If Farstay falls instead, the link survives through Areal, but Ugo 5 and Iolet will suffer.
This is Schedar, the uninhabited system between CD-36 and Cygnus.
It has no capturable planets, so there are two ways we could have the logistics work here. Either the link just skips over the system entirely, as above--the blue line goes right from one gate to the other--or the link requires a platform of some kind to be built in the system, like so:
Of course, this is extraordinarily vulnerable, far moreso than a planet. Especially if the platform, like others currently, can run out of resources without player intervention. So I'm thinking we go with the first option, or just add a single planet to establish the link.
Finally we get to Cygnus. I've chopped the image in half, as there was a lot of empty space in the middle.
The link to Schedar and CD-36 comes out of the gate and runs through Big Boonie, then from there to either Boonie I or Azuk. From Boonie I it goes to Af and then to Junction, while from Azuk it goes to Junction directly. From Junction, it goes through the inter-server gate and establishes the connection into Sagittarius.
A closeup of the Faobian cluster, since it's kinda hard to see on the overall map:
The links from Af and Azuk come to Junction and then through the gate, but all the other planets in the cluster are also dependent on Junction as well (quite appropriately named, isn't it?). At this closer zoom, the planet-to-node links show up. If Junction is captured, not only will every planet in the Faobian cluster suffer, but all ICC holdings out in Sagittarius will shut down. This makes Junction a very crucial planet to hold onto.
The logistics links provide many vital services. First and foremost, they allow planets connected to function. Without a link back to the Homeworld, Research Labs will not function and only the Colony Hub will provide technology. They also determine the level of maximum Tech; at each step in the chain, a planet is limited to the Tech of the planet before it -5 or so. Thus if Exathra has 120 Tech, the planets linked directly to it are limited to 115, while the planets linked to them are limited to 110, and the planets linked to those limited to 105, and so on. If the Metaverse is big enough, extremely distant colonies will only be able to have the Tech provided by their Colony Hub.
Secondly, they allow trade to flow. Every structure on a planet except for mines and hydro farms consume resources, and the higher the tech the more resources it needs to function. Planets of low-tech--say, 10-30--can produce much more than they need to function. Mid-tech planets--40-60--can mostly meet their own needs. High-tech planets--70 and up--require income from other planets. The resource income is exponential with Tech level, so a Tech 90 planet needs many Tech 20 planets feeding it. Since their level of tech determines everything down the road, Node planets will almost always want to be as high-tech as possible, so they will need substantial income. Each planet will have an income and output level, determined by the sum of all its structures. A planet will see to its own needs first, then send resources up to the next-highest node. So Junction will accept resources from the planets within its cluster, take what it needs to function (along with a bit extra to build up a reserve), then send the rest on up the line towards Exathra--unless of course the planets further up the line are full, in which case resources begin to stockpile. The amount of resources a world can stockpile will be dependent on planet type (as it is now) and Tech level, so Node planets will be able to have a much bigger stockpile than their dependents.
Thirdly, they allow troop movements. Each planet will have a minimum garrison level, dependent on its Tech level. A planet with less than this level will both gain troops from its own local garrisons and from worlds further up the line. Once it secures its minimum garrison, it starts sending troops out to worlds further down the chain, as they will have more pressing need of them than the core worlds. This way, planets are able to supply and support each other, and in particular we won't have to worry about AI transports taking too many troops off a planet because they won't be allowed to load them once it reaches its minimum garrison (instead of the flat 12 inf per planet we have currently).
Fourth (and tied to that last bit), they serve as AI rally points. AI ships will spawn at the highest-level Node in the constellation and park at the lowest-level Node when not doing anything--so for the ICC systems, they would all hang out at Junction. They will prioritize defending and recapturing these worlds above regular planets. Furthermore, the presence of a node link will determine whether AI ships spawn at all. If the ICC have no planets in Sagittarius that are linked back to Cassiopeia, they won't get any AI ships spawning in that constellation. Once they take a single Node, the AIs will start arriving and help them go on the offensive. The number of AI ships spawning for a faction will depend on how many Node links they have; if their Node planets are being taken, more of them will spawn to fight back. The battle for the last Node planet will be furious as the AIs turn out in greater numbers, but once it falls they will retreat. Non-node planets will not contribute at all to AI spawning.
Also, AI ships will have a timer to prevent flooding. If for example ICC Dreadnought XIV is killed, ICC Dreadnought XV won't spawn for 10 minutes or so. This gives UGTO or K'luth players a window to take a planet after they've defeated an AI fleet. If the Homeworld of a faction is captured, their AIs will stop spawning entirely in all servers... but at the same time, a timer will start counting down. After a few days or maybe a week, a huge AI armada will spawn in an attempt to re-take their homeworld and get back into the game. If it is foiled, the countdown resets. And if players manage to capture a Node planet beforehand, the timer will execute immediately and the AIs will back them up.
Finally, they provide communications. Planetary distress calls propogate up and down the line, so if there is no link to a planet no-one outside of its immediate vicinity will hear the distress call. The same could apply to ships, but I'm not certain of that yet. Heck, this entire aspect is tenative so far.
Blockades would hinder the logistics, but not cripple it. They would stop resources and troops moving through that particular planet, but nothing else. They wouldn't shut down as it would if the link were severed entirely; research and communications would still work. And of course the AI would respond in force to such a blockade.
This, however, is only the first step. With the layout of the Metaverse as-is, this would lead to back-and-forth tug-of-war combat. The only way to advance is through Sagittarius, and it would be laughably easy for one faction to cripple another's front lines by taking a single crucial planet. Which is why an expansion of the Metaverse would be required.
This is the basic concept, not a real map of course, just a simple diagram of the relative positions of things:
Each dot is a server, each line an inter-server jumpgate. The red, white and blue dots are Ursa Major, Lacerta and Cassiopeia respectively--K'luth, UGTO and ICC home territories. The orange dot right in the middle is Sagittarius. The three slightly smaller dots arranged about it are the secondary servers: Green is Procyon (MI), teal is Rogen's Rift (Pirates), and yellow is Ursa Minor (newbie). All that forms the core of the Metaverse.
Fighting through Sagittarius is intended to be the shortest, most direct route to the enemy, but it is also going to be the most well-fortified. Which is why there are two alternate paths. The pink dots immediately outside the core, connected to the home territories by the grey ring, form the outer territories. Each is connected to two home systems and one of the secondary servers. These servers will be quieter than Sagittarius, but also more expansive. A faction will be required to hold more territory if they chose to advance through these areas and there will be far more situations where the loss of a single Node planet severs the link back to the homeworld, so it is a more difficult road to take when attacking the enemy. Also, the NPCs will be a persistant nuisance, especially because they'll aim to capture Node planets.
Since it is quieter--fewer AI spawns than in Sagittarius (I figure Cruisers at most), less overall conflict since there are only two factions facing each other at a time--it is also more conducive to newbies. The three secondary servers each connect to one of the outer territories, chosen deliberately: Newbie connects to the ICC vs UGTO territory, as that conflict is IMHO easier to understand (new players are not required to figure out how to deal with K'luth cloaking), Rogen's Rift opens into UGTO vs K'luth, and Procyon opens into K'luth vs ICC (the two more "advanced" factions fighting the more difficult NPCs). If a player faction can actually secure one of the secondary servers, they can use them as a way to open up a second front in Sagittarius. But they're more risky, since the NPCs will try to retake them (or the other faction's AIs in Newbie).
Then the outermost servers, the purple dots connected by the dark grey lines, come into play. These are the rim territories, the backwaters, the rear ends of nowhere. Far more of the systems here will be of the bare minimal kind that were added into the most recent expansion of the Metaverse, with at most one capturable planet. Advancing along this route will take much, much longer, but will be potentially more rewarding. No NPCs will venture out this far, and the AI spawns (Destroyers at most) will be minimal. Still, enemy players can easily come in behind your lines through the link to the outer territories and cut off your Node links. If you do manage to make it to the enemy home systems, this is essentially the backdoor--ignored and underprotected.
This will require lots of new systems, but most can be pretty basic and cobbled together quickly. Or we could move some from the existing servers, which will probably require re-organizing anyway.
I realize this is long-reaching and ambitious, but it could add loads of depth to the gameplay, much more than just AI ships or Enhancements have on their own.
[ This Message was edited by: Jim Starluck on 2009-01-07 21:42 ]
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Sardaukar
Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 1656
| Posted: 2009-01-07 22:09
Posting the two links here for people who miss the offcoloring of the text.
http://beta.darkspace.net/?module=forums.php&page=/viewtopic.php?topic=46143&forum=36
http://www.darkspace.net/index.htm?module=forums.php&page=/viewtopic.php?topic=46216&forum=1&start=11
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2009-01-08 01:58
Jim put it in many ways better than myself however I find myself opposed to more systems.
As it stands I feel the MV is a big chaotic mess. Which may be the intention but I feel thatt it doesn't help at all.
While the logistic part is pretty solid, the main weakness I see is how easy it is just to cut off one faction.
Which is why I feel its better if the action is more linear. From planet to planet to system to system. The biggest issue I see with PvP and direction is that there is nothing funnelling people automatically. New players would have a hard time grasping the system from the get go. They need easing in.
If its linear (that is, systems and to some extent planets being captured in order), then the front line is ever obvious - like a scenario, fights will be concentrated in one or two systems at a time rather than all over the place. Once a system is being contested, the rest is gravy.
To me, the concept is to make the MV as a whole important, but not the whole picture. Resources, garrisons and technology that Jim outlined is perfect for this. But I feel that fights need to be focused affairs. 'Assuming' that people will congregate will be enough isn't good enough, you want to force them to.
I know, that sounds bad doesn't it? But DS's most important aspect of the game needs to important and understood by all players. Players should not be able to afford to let even a single planet be captured unopposed without serious consequences.
To do this, individual planets need to be important, every step of the way. Jim's idea does this, but it still doesn't focus the players and focus the fighting. Thats the important part. The best way to do this I see is to limit the choices they have.
This goes back to the old idea (and its old), that systems must be captured before you can move on to another system. Once players have successfully captured a system and they have a Node planet linking to a jumpgate, the next system could be gone into.
At first you'd have everyone start in the home system, slowly moving through the chain of systems (and if its linear, it might as well just be a chain) until they run into an enemy system and then they slug it out for control.
And so on it goes until you reach the home systems. The front line is literally the front line and as such, combat hotspots become excrutiatingly obvious.
-Ent
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-Daedalus-
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 26, 2006
Posts: 549
| Posted: 2009-01-08 02:22
Can someone make this into a summary. I fell asleep twice reading it. It's not that it's boring or anything just reading makes me sleepy.
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2009-01-08 03:38
Quote:
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On 2009-01-08 01:58, Enterprise wrote:
Jim put it in many ways better than myself however I find myself opposed to more systems.
As it stands I feel the MV is a big chaotic mess. Which may be the intention but I feel thatt it doesn't help at all.
While the logistic part is pretty solid, the main weakness I see is how easy it is just to cut off one faction. |
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I suppose it could be made to work without more systems... am I really the only one who longs for more spaces off to the side and the back to putter about in? :
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2009-01-08 04:02
Quote:
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On 2009-01-08 03:38, Jim Starluck wrote:
Quote:
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On 2009-01-08 01:58, Enterprise wrote:
Jim put it in many ways better than myself however I find myself opposed to more systems.
As it stands I feel the MV is a big chaotic mess. Which may be the intention but I feel thatt it doesn't help at all.
While the logistic part is pretty solid, the main weakness I see is how easy it is just to cut off one faction. |
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I suppose it could be made to work without more systems... am I really the only one who longs for more spaces off to the side and the back to putter about in? :
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Well no, It would be nice. But I just see the problem as there not being enough people.
A real decent fleet fight is at least ten on each side. And considering there are three factions, to get a constant fight going there would have to be at least 30 people in one place. In a big arena, well, thats hard to do.
If there are 300 people playing though, well, you dont want them all in one place, so big systems are good. But that doesn't seem likely in the near future does it?
-Ent
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Pegasus
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: August 02, 2005
Posts: 434
From: Eleventh galaxy on the right!
| Posted: 2009-01-08 05:40
I would just like to see the old .483 metaverse map split into the servers we currently have hosting at the moment than the mess we have right now. It was far more playable.
As it is we barely leave Sag as kluth and if we do its only the one jump to luyten or BD.
The invasion of Sol and ICC space no longer happens which is a shame.
[ This Message was edited by: =Pegasus= on 2009-01-08 05:42 ]
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SoL Badguy *Monster Energy*
Grand Admiral
Joined: November 03, 2007
Posts: 42
From: Romania, Craiova
| Posted: 2009-01-08 05:48
Quote:
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On 2009-01-08 05:40, =Pegasus= wrote:
I would just like to see the old .483 metaverse map split into the servers we currently have hosting at the moment than the mess we have right now. It was far more playable.
As it is we barely leave Sag as kluth and if we do its only the one jump to luyten or BD.
The invasion of Sol and ICC space no longer happens which is a shame.
[ This Message was edited by: =Pegasus= on 2009-01-08 05:42 ]
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Agreed.
Why did they take out the 483 map in the 1st place anyway?
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2009-01-08 07:28
We have them split because we cannot run the entire metaverse on one server core. Even with todays hardware, it's just not enough. It has nothing to do with how old DarkSpace is - processing the amount of data DarkSpace has to is quite a task - one that cannot be done by a single processor.
Hence, the map was split up, and we added more systems than many metaverse maps before (because that's how it was always intended to be).
I've requested a pre-server nav map, which allows you to see the entire metaverse, instead of just a single part of it.
The discussion at hand isn't why there is no 1.483 map, or 1.480 map - it's Jim's idea. Hopefully I've answered why we're not going back to the map/server infastructure (and we won't, it simple doesn't work), so, back to topic.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2009-01-08 07:29 ]
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2009-01-08 13:09
I suppose an alternate setup to the extra systems... connect the three "secondary" servers--Ursa Minor, Rogen's Rift and Procyon--to more than one other server.
Rogen's Rift is already sorta set up like this: it connects to Sagittarius, Lacerta, Ursa Major and has a gate to Ursa Minor, though there isn't a corresponding one on the other side. There really should be one, since Rogen's Rift is still rank-limited but at a higher level than Ursa Minor. Newbies could start off in the latter and move to the former before heading out into Sagittarius.
However, I figure the Rift should connect to *ICC* home space rather than K'luth, because then we can have Procyon connect to the K'luth home space at its other end. Probably via another wormhole.
That way, the ICC and the UGTO have the option of going through the Rift to open up another front... but since it's rank-locked, it won't be as easy. We won't have Dreads and Stations to bust through the Pirate lines, and higher-ranking players will be more interested in Sagittarius. The Pirates will always be trying to take back the Node links an offensive would depend on.
Then the K'luth, or someone intending on attacking them, can go through Procyon. Kaus Borealis could be closer to ICC and UGTO space than it is to K'luth, and thus could work as a backdoor if the K'luth are holding the front lines well... or they could use it themselves to open up another front.
That way we get the same overall effect without needing to add systems, even if it couldn't hurt to put in a few more of those bare-bones systems just to act as spacers. I'd still like that, since they wouldn't be as much of a strain on the server as a system full of planets.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2009-01-08 13:53
I think the newbie server may best be kept seperate personally.
As for the 'AI' servers being connected as you suggest; its a good idea. But as I said, I would still prefer it if people were forced to capture a system (that is, gain ownership) and a node connecting to that gate before being able to go through.
If there were alot more players, I'd say add more smaller branches (small constellations with few planets) on the outer rim of the MV but I really dont want to see combat spread out even more thinly.
But then I've pretty much always been in favor of fewer planets.
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2009-01-08 14:04 ]
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2009-01-08 14:19
Quote:
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On 2009-01-08 13:53, Enterprise wrote:
I think the newbie server may best be kept seperate personally.
As for the 'AI' servers being connected as you suggest; its a good idea. But as I said, I would still prefer it if people were forced to capture a system (that is, gain ownership) and a node connecting to that gate before being able to go through.
If there were alot more players, I'd say add more smaller branches (small constellations with few planets) on the outer rim of the MV but I really dont want to see combat spread out even more thinly.
But then I've pretty much always been in favor of fewer planets.
-Ent
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...d'oh. I knew I was forgetting something.
Nodes would have the gate codes, or control centers, or whatever. You could come OUT of a gate, but not go back into it unless you held a Node connected to it.
This could make the Wormhole Device a lot more attractive, to avoid having your fleet marooned in an enemy system if an attack failed... though I suppose most people would just log in that case.
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Meko
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 03, 2004
Posts: 1956
From: Vancouver
| Posted: 2009-01-09 04:38
ohhh locking gates!!! fantastic idea. that would make friggin wormholes something other than 'stuff u dont use'.
also, bump, cause this thread and the ideas within rock hard.
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2009-01-09 15:02
Of course, gates within uncappable systems--those without inhabitable planets--would be free to use by anyone. So the placement of those systems might be strategically relevant, if they form a corridor of unrestricted travel.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2009-01-09 17:13
Quote:
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On 2009-01-07 21:40, Jim Starluck wrote:
In the old Scenario servers, we had a single star system at a time. Some planets would be vital targets, that one faction or the other would need to capture to assure victory. Which faction won would determine what map came up next, and the players on the winning side would recieve a slight prestige bonus. They had a reason to fight, something to work towards. This is sorely lacking in the game now. The addition of Enhancements provides an incentive to actually fight, but nothing beyond that--they are a bonus instead of the ultimate goal. |
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I just noticed the email about the new version and a coupon, so I came to read the forums and see what's going on. This quote here reminded me why I stopped playing Darkspace:
The game became way less exciting for me when the old scenario server gameplay died.
Now I remember fondly how this game used to be back when scenarios were the primary games. Everyone's crammed into 1 map, guaranteeing lots of combat and excitement. Planets needed to be captured and built quickly which meant intense maneuvering in the beginning as you struggled to to build vs enemy bombers. You gained lots of prestige, earned lots of badges, and generally had a lot of fun since it wasn't like the MV where everyone is spread out and hours could go by without any pvp action.
 I just couldn't get into the MV-only gameplay. Maybe I'll try again with this new version but I'm not promising anything. For one thing, there's only 1 resource now? Dumbing down the game are we?
So for me yes it's been sorely lacking for a very long time. The intensity of having to do everything from scratch, under enemy pressure, is gone in the MV.
This version on the outside seems to want to change that with the addition of AI. Gives us something to do in the MV when there's nothing to do and a way to earn badges like transport badge without going up against optimally built MV planets? I'll have to check it out.
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2009-01-09 20:46 ]
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