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Why Scrap when being Invaded?? |
Beast
Cadet
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: May 27, 2002
Posts: 345
From: Wouldnt you like to know
|  Posted: 2005-02-27 20:43
1. It,s been practiced through out world history to destroy anything that could fall into enemy hands.
2.Why should anyone let you use what they built against them??
3.It,s a good thing for one of many good reasons besides the reasons given above.
a.Gives the new people practice building in the MV.
b.Slows the enemy Advance on new planets by having to devert resources namly a ship or 2 in rebuilding the planet.
c.Makes it more difficult for people who complain about people scraping planets.
While some people take scraping planets by retreating foe with a grain of salt and dont complain . Others usually come here to complain about somthing that is practical in Real War and in game.
It,s a valid stratigy to slow your enemies advance in any way possible with out breaking the R.O.C.
So next time your in retreat from a invading force I would expect nothing less then for you to slow me/my faction down in any way possible.Rather it be Flux Scrapping of planets or just plain in simple Dying to the end.
"Dont be defiant by posting in the forums about it be Defiant in the Game"
[ This Message was edited by: Beast on 2005-02-27 20:44 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-02-27 22:11
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On 2005-02-27 20:43, Beast wrote:
It,s a valid stratigy to slow your enemies advance in any way possible with out breaking the R.O.C.
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1. Use an apostraphe, not a comma in 'It's.'.
2.'stratigy' is 'strategy'.
3. And 'R.O.C' means 'Really Old Cookbook.
---
Aside from that, you should note, this is a game, where people play to have fun, NOT to find the most realistic way to play a game.
In real war, we revolt within factions and shoot our own countrys dont we?
In real war, we use spying, dirty tricks, and espionage to get information, do we not?
Hey alot of things in real war, in fact, happen to be against the RoC, strange isnt it? I aint gonna go on here, by the fact many of these things are valid in real war, yet illegal to do here in DS,
Such as shooting our own teammate, some people in real war, actually do that, when people within that war, revolt against their own side. They also, sabotage those facilitys, and as well, revea; hidden information within there.
Also against the RoC  .
So the next time you talk about real war, and how it affects DS, remember also, all the things in real war, that are NOT allowed in DS as well. Scrapping just happens to be outside the general area for some reason, even though its still pat of REAL WAR.
Strange indeed.
But still, it doesnt matter does it, just a game right? Where were supposed to have fun. So we can all practice this
-Ent
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Steamrunner
Cadet
Joined: January 15, 2005
Posts: 74
From: Somewhere in California
| Posted: 2005-02-27 23:44
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On 2005-02-27 22:11, The Star of Enterprise [-GTN-] wrote:
Such as shooting our own teammate, some people in real war, actually do that, when people within that war, revolt against their own side. They also, sabotage those facilitys, and as well, revea; hidden information within there.
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It's reveal with an l, not a ;. I couldn't resist, sorry.
I think the gist of what he's saying is that scrapping is a viable technique that is not like SY exploiting or fluxxing, or a number of issues I don't know much about-it doesn't hugely imbalance the game or create an unnatural problem with no readily acceptable solution. I personally scrap military or highly useful targets, but compromise to be fair, and because I like things to be pretty equal so all are motivated to stay in game and fight on.
Without any of the things in real war going on (like ships blowing up, production, infantry) there wouldn't BE a Darkspace, no one would want to play oddly enough, so how much of real life war and game war to have in DS would be a discussion indeed. One that wouldn't end most likely, and just be a madhouse of opinion, philosophy, and who knows what else. I doubt it would turn out better than talks of the major issues we have now.
I do think most of the real life war things you left unsaid were the atrocities, and I don't think scrapping is one of them. I think you are saying that too. =o]
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AdmBito
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: October 04, 2002
Posts: 1249
From: Its hard out here for a pimp
| Posted: 2005-02-27 23:57
Revolting against your faction is illegal in "real life." So it is here.
Shooting your teammates (aka FF) is against the rules in "real life." So it is here.
Destroying things, supplies, buildings, anything an enemy can use during a retreat is accepted, more likely encouraged in real life. So why isn't it here?
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IronDuke
Cadet
Joined: November 20, 2003
Posts: 30
| Posted: 2005-02-28 15:06
Preventing war-material falling into enemy hands is a prudent course of action of a wise commander and should be widely practiced.
Humanity should be united in respecting human rights and acknowledging that the kluth routinely practice extermination of civilian populations (e.g. scrapping domes). And that practice is a mater of standard military doctrine as demonstrated my the recent communication intercept of a high ranking kluth warlord.
These war crimes practiced by the Kluth demonstrates their barbarity and lack of respect for human rights, a barbarity and lack of humanity that denys them any entitlement to human rights.
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Bobamelius
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 2074
From: Ohio
| Posted: 2005-02-28 15:29
Scrapping is a valid tactic, yes. But sometimes it can really ruin the fun of a battle, or prevent a battle from occuring altogether.
Say a fleet attacks a gateless system via wormhole. They go to cap an SY planet for themselves, and it's scrapped. Well, so much for that. Invaders disband, are mopped up, and log. Battle over before it even started.
Granted, this generally happens when the fleet is comprised mostly of noobs looking for a quick fight (and let's face it, that's what 90% of ICC and UGTO fleets are).
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A Troll =SSC=
Cadet
Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 302
From: New Orleans,Louisiana
| Posted: 2005-02-28 16:10
and u just noticed that.about the gateless SY attack gone bad. u could bring a engy or a supply ship with a build in the cargo hold and u could rebuild and hold till u could ferry ships in.till then bring in reinforcements via wormhold.and plus u wouldn't need to actually knock off if u think about (i'd do it anyway cause its smart and more reliable tactic in my Scorched Earth by Sir Scrap A Lot aka kluth n00bie hand book)all u have to do is knock off the research labs and power.Or just PCM the whole planet and kill everyone on it if u wanna be evil like me lol
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Lord DowneyBUM (UK)
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 13, 2003
Posts: 437
From: London England
| Posted: 2005-03-01 09:00
and let's face it, that's what 90% of ICC and UGTO fleets are)
ouch.
Scrapping is legit in my opinion.
It seems to occur mostly when there is only one defender against a mass attack. In that istance i may not like it, but he is attempting to hold us up, which is only good tactical sense.
You know who i mean AZ.
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Beast
Cadet
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: May 27, 2002
Posts: 345
From: Wouldnt you like to know
| Posted: 2005-03-01 09:32
So by making it not fun you mean by making it easy for you to advance without rebuilding what you take??
Excuse me for actually as a foe making it difficult to invade further into my space.
I,m truly sorry for my race the Kluth putting up a fight and using common sense dealing with a invading force.
I,m truly sorry that you human races have such hard time and lack the skills
to build planets properly.I,m havelots of pitty for races who worry more about spelling and grammer then good tactics.
In short you are a low life Back Water species in which we consider you tobe virus. Even your locus has more purpose .
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A Troll =SSC=
Cadet
Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 302
From: New Orleans,Louisiana
| Posted: 2005-03-01 10:23
for the record i'm part machine i hate humans too lol i just get paid by them
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Tellaris
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: April 30, 2002
Posts: 830
From: Land of Chocolate
| Posted: 2005-03-01 15:24
Beast, you are the target of the spellchecker today! (Grammer will come some other day)
1. Its I'm, not I,m.
2. I have lots of pity...
3. TO BE.
4. What the heck is locus? I'm assuming you mean FOCUS.
Oh, I know how to build. I specialized in it when I used to play. I don't know about the rest of ICC and UGTO, surely whatever is left of our vets know how to build.
And are you crazy? Spelling and grammer are super important!!!
On scrapping, at least make it take longer then it does to scrap a planet, its rather unrealistic for a building to be gone instantly...
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Bobamelius
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 2074
From: Ohio
| Posted: 2005-03-01 15:47
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On 2005-03-01 09:00, Lord Downey (UK) wrote:
and let's face it, that's what 90% of ICC and UGTO fleets are)
ouch.
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Clarification: By 'fleets' I was referring to groups of players getting together in the MV, not 'fleets' such as S.W or CEC, etc.
And Beast: Scrap all you want. I don't care. My point was, it usually stops a battle before it even starts, and that's pretty much where all the fun lies. Without a shipyard to spawn from, it becomes quite inconvenient to get to a system, thus many people don't bother.
I think you're taking this far too seriously. Losing a planet or system isn't the end of the world, you can always recap once the attackers log off. Until then, why not have some fun, get out some combat ships and duke it out in some nice ship-to-ship combat?
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-Pojo
Cadet
Joined: January 11, 2004
Posts: 68
From: GMT -5
| Posted: 2005-03-01 15:59
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On 2005-03-01 15:24, Baikon the newest Ghost wrote:
Beast, you are the target of the spellchecker today! (Grammer will come some other day)
4. What the heck is locus? I'm assuming you mean FOCUS.
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Heh...I think the correct term is locust.
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Grimith
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: August 09, 2003
Posts: 836
From: Your local future farm.
| Posted: 2005-03-01 18:40
Okay, I've had seriously conflicting attitudes about this since I started playing this game. I don't know why, but my opinion has been constantly shifting and varying and I'm not quite sure where I've been in this sea of grey. However, I think I've pinned it down now.
Scrapping, for the most part, has been used in real life and is, largely, an acceptable (and tactically sound) practice. For instance, the Russians used it against Napoleon and against Hitler (the Russians are the major examples I can think of, but there are obviously others). Militarily, I can't find a fault in the problem other than that of having to remake or rebuild what was lost.
However, I tend to have extreme losses with it --- especially in game terms. Here's why.
Let's take the role-playing stance, for instance (yes, I know. Amazing). Let's assume that there is an enemy invasion, and the whole planet is bound to be captured. Now, let's say this is a very important barren planet (don't ask me how it's very important, but let's just say it is... which makes it have a lot of population). Now, in the case of "Scorched Earth," everything would be taken down --- from the interdictor to the dome.
What happens to, oh, say, seventy million people living on the planet? If one says that they've managed to escape from the planet on transports, I want to know how --- after all, when there's a group of ganglias, claws, a hive, some scales... it just doesn't seem feasible, does it? So, do they become enslaved? It's possible, but doubted. Do they all of a sudden hop into their seventy million space suits and live forever on the oxygen in those tanks until they are miraculously picked up? Ehn.
You know what I think happens to them?
They die.
Seventy million people, gone... just like that.
Of course, the belief would be that this is a war... that there will be losses... and that their deaths will have served the greater good --- that way, that population can not be turned against the government that was once serving them. But, hey, if you want to be realistic about scrapping, let's be realistic about the cost, too. Seventy million lives, gone because of that.
Considering that a million people (I think that's how much one unit is equal to in DarkSpace) can be generated in a minute's worth of real time (and more from scrapping infantry), I doubt the population costs have ever seemed important to players. Still...
Now, let's take the realistic point --- the point that this is just a game... because, after all, I doubt people want to hold that "moral value" when it's only just pixels on a monitor.
First off, there's a prestige cost for scrapping the planet to hell. Sure, it's not significant, but it's there. It probably won't hurt you if you have, oh, say, fifteen thousand construction points, but, for the guy that has 1003, it's going to be a bit problematic.
Now, there's also the fact that someone else might have taken the time to build that planet. Depending on how much effort they put into it (how much time they spent to watch over it and get it just right), that planet could have had many hours invested into it. With that in mind, it should be up to the planet builder whether or not it's scrapped --- no person should just be able to commandeer and go omgweneedtoremovethisnow. Obviously, this does happen in real life (that's why we have a rank system), but, when a builder's already a high rank... ehn... completely frying the planet is a good way to get that person on your bad side.
Especially if the scrapping was premature (i.e: the planet is not captured at all) or pointless (a sudden fading in ships unrelated to the loss of the sy they could have gained by taking the planet causes the planet to turn back to the hands of its former owners). I've seen that happen, and I'm sure several other players have seen that happen. A sudden invasion force just breaks apart for no reason, allowing you to easily reclaim what was formerly yours. What happens now, when you revisit the planet to see that nothing exists there at all.
I would hope that the scrapper spends his time rebuilding that rock to its former capacity, if not better.
So, anyway, that's my view. Some scrapping, I find reasonable --- scrapping the interdictor bases, the shipyard, the shield generators, and any research labs (maybe the colony hub along with it) is what I'll generally do. But, blatantly removing the entire thing is something I don't see much of a point to (granted, I've done it before, but those were in situations where either I've built the planet, I've been in extreme emotional frustration at some factor in the game (everyone has their own peeves; some people have scrapping as one of them), or both).
Yes, that sentence ended in a preposition. Woo.
But, I digress.
Now, obviously, what I've just said about the moral issues of scrapping might only apply to the humans. I don't know much about the K'luth psyche or beliefs (yeah, they're really big warriors, and they would happily sacrifice themselves, but, that's about it, honestly). Perhaps they could handle the moral issue of scrapping more simply because they don't want the humans to have the advantage. But, in ICC versus UGTO, I don't see them being so bitter as to annihilate everything before it gets into the hands of others. Especially with the constant eye of the public being ever-watchful (in the democratic governments that I believe the human factions to wield, it's hard to hide intelligence).
Still.....................................
If one wants to talk about realism, one should cover all angles.
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Antoni
Chief Marshal
Joined: January 21, 2003
Posts: 17
| Posted: 2005-03-02 12:52
Scrapping takes no SKILL and no thought. This is new Idea that recently took ahold of kluth mentality. If u cant skillfully take back ur planet u need help.
If u want to slow down an enemy SHUT DOWN the planet, then it will take time to build up research and population. Scrapping is boring and requires no intelligence.
I dont care how u pretty up an old ugly fat chick, she is still ugly.
Scrapping is lame.....
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