| Author |
More On Faction Balancing |
Major_Metals
Cadet
Joined: May 12, 2004
Posts: 8
|  Posted: 2004-09-23 12:57
I don't believe people just navigate to the side that seems to be winning. Even when UTGO was at it's apex just a month ago there was only about 8 uggies out of a possible 40+ players.
No. Players are choosing ICC because the ships are better. People are going to choose what is easiest. Only a strong few are willing to work hard for what they get like us UTGO.
Even when I need a quick prestige boost in newbie I choose ICC. The ICC ships are more versitile and i can build a shield and keep my planet from most damage while i go off and mirv the poor helpless Kluth and UTGO planets.
I am sick of playing in the mv all by my self at times when there is over 20 to 40 other people playing the other factions. I am unsubbing because of the lag issues and this unbalance universe. I'll come back if they ever address these issues.
Already we lost so many uggies to REAL multiplay games like Eve. Even Ruff has left ds for Eve Online. THAT in itself speaks volumes about where ds is going.
Suggestions? Put another torp on our TC's? I don't know... do something small and see if that helps. But do something. Or we all will soon leave.
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Wyke {ThorsHammer}
Cadet
Joined: February 22, 2003
Posts: 416
| Posted: 2004-09-23 13:15
I'll mostly skip ship balancing since that is already planned for the next release, other than to say it makes little sense that the ICC have both the best Bombers and the Best Defences against Bombers.
There are a few issues that need to be addressed asap,
1) Pulse Shield is to powerful, a single AD, AC, or Combat Destroyer can stop a whole fleet from bombing. It should have its range drastically reduced to about 50cu so it aids the defense of the using ship only, it should only effect dum weapons, and not fighters.
2) Flux is not working, its supposed to be UGTO Weapon, but is most useful to the ICC because it goes through armour like butter but has minimal effect on shields. It should not be stackable and should effect smart weapons like fighters and missiles, but not dum weapons like Torps, MIRV or Bio.
3) WH should be available to all factions in a ship other than the station, i.e. Command Dread for the UGTO and Ganglia for the Kluth. The alternative would be to make it share a slot with JD so any ships could be modded to use it.
[ This Message was edited by: Wyke { Thors Hammer } on 2004-09-23 13:17 ]
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Fornax
Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: April 30, 2002
Posts: 906
From: Jacksonville, FL
| Posted: 2004-09-23 13:30
While I agree on the 'easiest' comment...and tentatively agree with your choice of ships (IN NEWBIE!) to be ICC, except, that you're talking about two different things. Although ICC might be better in Newbie, that difference gets erased when you go into the MV (and in Admiral) .
Yes, playing against 2:1 odds stinks.
I have no clue why the numbers changed. I refuse to believe that miraculously the ICC has more pilots with no/fewer connection issues.
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I think the evidence also speaks for itself concerning players tendency to move to the winning side. Take for example just about every battle I've ever been in since I started playing Darkspace.
Lets say a group begins an offensive, and has initial successes, they tend to attract additional pilots. But, slowly, the defenders rally and eventually attain parity or even a small disadvantage...but since they are defending, the attackers stop gaining planets. One of two things always happens from this point...either the attackers are motivated and go after a completely separate target (different system?) OR, they start losing pilots - usually half or more within 15-30 minutes.
The defenders that just rallied, may keep their new numeric advantage long enough to capture a planet or two, but usually they start losing numbers also pretty quickly.
Aka, once the attack stalled, the attackers were no longer having (as much) fun and left...aka, navigate to the winning side (which in this case is to merely log off, instead of move to their faction)
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What I believe is actually happened is the exact same thing on a larger scale. The UGTO was attacking for weeks and doing very well, eventually the ICC rallied and put up similar numbers, and then the UGTO slowly began to disappear when they were no longer having (as much) fun and left. And, now that the ICC has noticed it, we've lost player-count at the same time.
The last piece of the answer is more subtle. Players being human, don't like to give up (due to boredom); or, at least, they don't like to admit they've given up (due to boredom). How many of those ex-DSers have actually just used the lag & balance issues as an excuse to move on in a way that wasn't their fault? By fault I mean it wasn't a personal choice, they were 'forced to make the decision because the game is bad right now'
Ok, know I'm rambling on, but this stuff is just human nature.
Nax
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
| Posted: 2004-09-23 13:35
No to the make all ships capable of WHing, yes to having other factions have ships that are capable of creating a WH. (Perhaps add in jump cruisers for each faction?).
If a pulse shield is going to have a range of 50 its reaction time has to be drasticly increased. As it stands, if you pulse for a missile that is 100 gu off, it will get in to as close as 50 gu before it is destroyed. Not only is there a delay in activating the pulse, but also a delay after it fires before the effect is felt. I think a range of 100, and effect only missiles/bombs is a fair bet. Increase the recharge time, and lower the endurance so it is one of the first items to go on a damaged ship. An extreme nerf, yes - but is pulse shield a make or break defense? Yes as well.
Now, this would effectively open ICC ships up to a lot more bombardment on their already weak shield systems (lets face it, even active shields are little match against some good tough armor), but I'll leave that open for whenever the new ship updates are releasd.
Agree with the flux, but it will be going UGTO only after this next patch.
And you are not in the MV all alone for the Uggies. Last time I was in they outnumbered the ICC and were kicking the crap outa us in Lalande, though I understand that we have since taken it back - and you still have Van.
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Major_Metals
Cadet
Joined: May 12, 2004
Posts: 8
| Posted: 2004-09-23 17:39
Yes was all alone. I played on Wednesday afternoon 1pm - 4pm (-5 GMT.) Not one other UTGO online with me after some that had played in the morning hours left. When you look up on the top of the screen and see 1 transport and NO other ships in the mv then you are most certianly by yourself. Meanwhile 2 icc stations 2 missle dreads and countless crusers were ammassed against New Pakistan. Unless your counting the lagged to death ghost ships that sometimes float aimlessly in the mv.
When I play I am lucky to find 3 players online. And, yes, we can bomb and cap a few planets. But when we do, 6 to 12 icc show up and there is not a whole lot you can do. All the icc has to do is sent one pulse ship after where-ever else we may choose to attack and use the rest to take our systems unopposed.
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Grimith
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: August 09, 2003
Posts: 836
From: Your local future farm.
| Posted: 2004-09-23 19:06
Metals, as much as I hate to say it, I find your complaining about faction number balances... pointless.
People have other things to do. Work, school... whatever it is, these people have a life to maintain. I, for one, was in school during that time that you just listed. Surely, no matter how much I'd want to, I wouldn't be foolish enough to walk out of school just to make you not alone.
While the numbers are slightly off, remember that our time zones are off, too. There are people that play over in Europe... there are people that play over in Asia... there are people that play all over North America. These people cannot always be available, and the differences in player base seem extremely exaggerated --- especially when a person can't stay on long enough to view it all.
Anyway, that's all I've got to say on this subject. I don't have the time, the patience, the will, or the care to go through this and make my points on faction balancing. It's been done over...
And over...
And over...
Ad infinitum.
Stating this stuff again and again is like bringing up a Cleric, having him cast true ressurection, and beating the topic with a blunt object until it dies... and then bringing up the Cleric again to repeat the process. Seriously, it shouldn't be that hard to try to find an old thread that talks about faction balancing and bring it back up. The initial complaints that may arise from ressurecting the thread may dissipate when one has something new to add.
And, considering that people have stated more about this topic than I think would be humanely possible, there can't be that much to add. There just can't.
That's the first and only comment I have to make on this.
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Captain Sternn
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 225
| Posted: 2004-09-23 23:11
im only gonna make one comment here since when did icc have the best bombers?...icc bomber destroyer 3 bomb slots 1 pcm...icc bomber dread again 3 bomb slots with 3 pcm...i agree if the planet you are attacking is close enough to a base of your own pcm'in a planet to death is easy but as for tryin it in open space..you are a target been there, done that, died lol.
ugto bomber cruiser 4 bomb slots? am i right i forget, much better for bombing (cause the dread manuevers like a stuck pig and the bomber dessie dies very easily)and dont forget the clavate of the kluth 5 bomb slots? (i also forget) ive played icc for a long time and i forget the exact stats im sure someone can correct me if im wrong.
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Avernus
Vice Admiral
Joined: September 12, 2004
Posts: 81
| Posted: 2004-09-24 18:48
I really can't comment on balancing issues as I am so new to the game my experience is limited. However to hear someone define EVE as a real game as opposed to Darkspace is laughable. I don't want to get off topic or start a flame here so if you ever want to debate EVE feel free to send me a msg. I really like Darkspace and sure it has some problems but for my part I am having WAY more fun in this game than I ever did in months of playing EVE. Darkspace is definantly unique and no other space game is like it. I'm trying to get a buddy of mine hooked. =)
[ This Message was edited by: Avernus on 2004-09-24 18:48 ]
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2004-09-24 19:05
Id comment... but now it feels like im beating a dead horse when I talk about this subject... so ill just leave it be.
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Ghostly Specter of an Ancient Past.
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Xpli$it
Marshal
Joined: March 06, 2004
Posts: 486
From: Canada
| Posted: 2004-09-24 20:04
Well half of the time, when attacking one faction and no enemies are to be found, the attack is usually transferred to the other faction. Most people get bored with no enemies.
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Ceridan
Cadet
Joined: May 24, 2003
Posts: 608
From: Canada
| Posted: 2004-09-24 21:25
Metals..... please stop complaining.
First of all, DarkSpace is a Real game, compared to the point-and-let-the-AI-fight choise of EvE. EvE is not a space sim, but a bad space themed rpg with economic parts.
Second: Pulse shields should stay at 250gu, but they should only affect Missiles, torps and Bombs.
Thrid: ICC has the worst bombers
Fourth: The only use of a Jump Cruiser is to gain points in Resources Lost/Killed
Finnaly: Check posts dating of about one year aggo, Luths where the supperior force, Icc was usualy found second, cause of alot of out of context luth. Luths are supposed to do guerilla warfare. But that was dealt with.
Now before even complaining, know that this game as a verry restricted dev team. And when they find problems they usualy try to fix it(compared to some other games).
and Metal, if you dont like this game, take your whining face out of here, and go play something boring like EvE.
PS: yes i know i hate EvE, but we should never compare DS to EvE. EvE is an RPG in Space while DS is a capital ship space flying sim with rpg elements.
wow long post, and note that im sorry if i have anny spelling error in this post.
PS2: If this sounds like a flame, it's not.... but since im so tired I might have said somethings a bit hard. I would not be suprise if I inserted some hatefull coment towards the weather in central America/South of NAmerica
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stuck in Univercity limbo
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Major_Metals
Cadet
Joined: May 12, 2004
Posts: 8
| Posted: 2004-09-25 20:25
Okay, one more idea.... No I don't have time to read up on posts over a year ago... sorry!
Has this been suggested before? A Non-player Ship. Lets say only one player is online in a faction. Give him a supply ship he can order to supply his ship.. or an anti that can help hide him... give the ONLY guy online... something... then when some real people come into the mv the ship goes poof.
I'd also like to say, I DONT WHINE. I am merely stating what is not fun in this game. Whiners just do that. I am bringing into the game an important discussion on how to make the game better. Playing a game where teamwork is required, ALL BY YOURSELF is not fun.
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Grimith
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: August 09, 2003
Posts: 836
From: Your local future farm.
| Posted: 2004-09-25 20:41
Quote:
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On 2004-09-24 21:25, Ceridan wrote:
Fourth: The only use of a Jump Cruiser is to gain points in Resources Lost/Killed
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You better watch who you say that around. I know people that will hurt you for insulting the JC. 
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Aragorn
Cadet
Joined: January 08, 2004
Posts: 168
From: Vancouver, Canada
| Posted: 2004-09-25 20:47
Actually Major has a point but not that I see much can be done about balencing the numbers of players.
To counter that and keep factions from being wiped clean I'd like to see planets and planet defences get tougher. Has anyone mentioned automated building Defence platforms as an option to that end. It would slow down the back and forth tide of the game. Planets are seeming pretty disposable at this point.
I thought the reflection on ICC ship strengths to be a good one. Good bombing however, has less to do with the number of bomb slots though and more to do with your bombers ability to survive for multiple attacks, long enough to do damage. The ICC ability to rotate shields and have armor is a distict advantage here. The use of flux against UGTO or Kluth who do not have shields is another example of this.
In war though one side or another will have certain advantages to be sure; the trick is in the game, if the ICC ships appear to be more fun to fly, how do you make the other factions more compelling.
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Fornax
Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: April 30, 2002
Posts: 906
From: Jacksonville, FL
| Posted: 2004-09-25 22:57
Complaints about ICC bombers being better & Shields being better are unfounded. Very Briefly I'll answer the charges in this fashion:
Bombing: Command Dread (solo) & Bomber Cruiser IS more survivable
Shields: Power issues
Fact: Pre-1.481 most ICC swapped shields for armor (slots changed preventing this). Given the choice today, under 1.482, I'd do it myself to all ships. Shields are NOT better when you have major power issues
I stand by my summation that the UGTO player count issue is a morale issue. The fix is simple. Start talking to your faction, get them to agree to get online at the same time...you don't even have to win territory, just make a showing, and the rest will appear to 'fix itself'
Nax
[ This Message was edited by: Fornax on 2004-09-25 23:02 ]
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